1 2 CITY COUNCIL 3 CITY OF NEW YORK 4 -------------------------------x 5 THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES 6 of the 7 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 8 -------------------------------x 9 10 September 12, 2003 Start: 10:30 a.m. 11 Recess: 2:20 p.m. 12 City Hall Council Chambers 13 New York, New York 14 B E F O R E: 15 PETER VALLONE 16 Chairperson, 17 COUNCIL MEMBERS: Philip Reed 18 Eric Dilan Helen Foster 19 Melinda Katz David Yassky 20 Vincent Gentile Eva Moskowitz 21 James Sanders Leroy Comrie 22 Helen Sears Kendall Stewart 23 24 LEGAL-EASE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 17 Battery Place - Suite 1308 25 New York, New York 10004 (800) 756-3410 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 John Feinblatt 4 Criminal Justice Coordinator 5 Thomas M. Prasso Director, License Division 6 New York City Police Department 7 Captain Roy T. Richter Commanding Officer, License Division 8 New York City Police Department 9 Senator Eric Schneiderman 10 Thelma D. Davis 11 Dr. Jeremiah A. Barondess President 12 The New York Academy of Medicine 13 Lucy Allen National Economic Research Association 14 Economic Consulting 15 Lisa Barnes National Economic Research Association 16 Economic Consulting 17 Amy L. Heath Director, Women in the Shooting Sports 18 New York State Rifle and Pistol Association 19 Anthony Imperato Henry Repeating Arms 20 Randall Casseday 21 Kahr Arms 22 Jim Lesczynski SCORE, New York City Chapter 23 Donna Dees Thomases 24 Million Mom March, Washington, D.C. 25 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) 3 Sara Alcoff Million Mom March, Brooklyn 4 Jackie Kuhls 5 Director of Public Policy New Yorkers Against Gun Violence 6 Andy Pelosi 7 New Yorkers Against Gun Violence 8 Anthony Xanthakis 9 Barry Cohen 10 Timothy Furey 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Today we are 3 focusing on a number of bills and resolutions 4 designed to stem the flow of illegal weapons here in 5 New York City. 6 Gun violence unfortunately is a sad 7 fact of life here, despite some of the strictest gun 8 control laws in the nation. This sad and devastating 9 reality was brought home to this very Chamber on 10 July 23rd with the shooting death of Council Member 11 James E. Davis, a member of this Committee and Chair 12 of our Subcommittee on Juvenile Justice. 13 This is our first hearing of this 14 committee since the tragic events of that day, and 15 we thought it was appropriate, but as a substantive 16 policy matter and as a way to honor the work, the 17 commitment and the expertise of Council Member James 18 Davis, to consider and hear testimony regarding 19 bills that touch on various aspects of gun control. 20 There are many items before this 21 Committee today, and I will quickly outline them for 22 you. 23 Intro. 197 creates a cause of action 24 against weapons manufactured who fail to abide by a 25 code of conduct as outlined in the bill. 5 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Intro. 210 imposes a civil penalty on 3 manufacturers of certain weapons illegally used to 4 injure or kill City employees. 5 Intro. 363 requires rifle and shotgun 6 owners to obtain liability insurance. 7 Intro. 454 prohibits the sale of a 8 rifle or shotgun to anyone under 21 years of age, 9 and requires firearms dealers to collect additional 10 information for purchases. 11 Intro. 487 creates a strict liability 12 cause of action against weapons manufacturers. 13 Intro. 536 limits the acquisition of 14 a shutgun to one for a 90-day period. 15 Resolution 584-A urges Congress to 16 authorize the establishment of a national ballistics 17 fingerprint database as articulated in Senate Bill 18 22. 19 Resolution 669-A urges the State 20 Legislature to require that gun owners obtain 21 liability insurance. 22 Resolution 1,000, we're up to 1,000, 23 see, we work pretty hard here at the Council, urges 24 the State Legislature to limit the acquisition of a 25 firearm to one per 90-day period, which is what 6 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 we're doing here on a City level. People should 3 understand, on a City level, we only have control 4 over rifles and shotguns. On a state level, they 5 control handguns. 6 And two resolutions which we're 7 voting on today, and we took testimony at previous 8 hearings, are resolution 288-A, calling on Congress 9 to pass Bill 260, which will close a background 10 check loophole at gun shows by extending the Brady 11 law. The sales at all gun shows. And Resolution 12 289-A, which calls on the State Legislature to 13 further restrict the issuance of a license for a 14 purchase of firearms to include those who have 15 committed a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, 16 or a misdemeanor crime of assaults or any three 17 misdemeanors in a ten-year period. We have done that 18 here on the City level regarding rifles, and now 19 we're calling on the State to do the same regarding 20 handguns. 21 In addition, we'll vote on intro. 22 482-A, for which we took testimony at our last 23 hearing in June to make it an A misdemeanor, to 24 trespass on the playing area of a professional 25 supporting event, and oppose the civil penalty, a 7 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 very high one I may add, $25,000 for the top level 3 crime, for those who interfere with a professional 4 sporting event. And we will be voting on those 5 today. 6 There are many different approaches 7 to stopping illegal guns here in New York City, and 8 they're embodied in these different proposals. We 9 agree on some, we don't agree on others, but they 10 all have one idea in common, to access, access -- to 11 limit access to illegal guns, and prevent 12 unnecessary violence. 13 There will be many different views 14 from the people who testify from the people sitting 15 up here at this table about these proposals, and 16 we'll make amendments to these bills after today. 17 It is our intent to listen to all the 18 testimony from both the policy and legal standpoint 19 to determine what we can do to prevent access to 20 legal guns. 21 One of our themes here today is to 22 call on the State and the federal government to do 23 more in this area. The City is doing all it can, but 24 we need help from the State and Federal government. 25 As we heard in our hearing here in 8 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 June, most guns, over 90 percent, that are used in 3 crime come from out of state, particularly from 4 states with lax gun control laws. That's why two of 5 our resolutions today call on the State and US 6 Congress to take a more active role. 7 Before I call on the NYPD for their 8 testimony, let me introduce my colleagues, and the 9 members of my Committee. 10 To my far left, Council Member Helen 11 Foster. Next to her, Council Member David Yassky, 12 the prime sponsor of many of these bills, and have 13 worked very hard with him and we've worked with our 14 staff members, our Counsel here, Ted Baecher, 15 crafting these bills, and I thank David and Ted for 16 their help. 17 On my far right, another member of 18 the Committee, Council Member Vincent Gentile, and 19 also we have other members joining us who have 20 sponsored some of these bills. Many will be coming 21 in throughout the hearing. Next to Mr. Gentile is 22 Council Member Eva Moskowitz, the prime sponsor of 23 the strict liability bill. Thank you. 24 And on my right is Council Member 25 James Sanders, sponsor of the bill requiring more 9 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 information from people who were trying to purchase 3 ammunition. 4 Thank you, both. 5 Let me first turn to -- because there 6 are some Council members up here who have done an 7 extraordinary amount of work on these bills, I'll 8 allow some short opening statements from some 9 others. So, first I'll call on Council Member Yassky 10 to give a brief opening statement. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Thank you, 12 Chair Vallone. I just want to thank you very, very 13 much for all your hard work, including but not 14 limited to calling this hearing today. Your 15 attention to the problem has been extraordinary. 16 You've shown extraordinary leadership. I think it 17 shows how valuable it is to have someone with the 18 experience and knowledge of a former prosecutor 19 chairing this Committee. So, thank you, again, Chair 20 Vallone. 21 I am not going to lay out the case 22 against the gun industry here in my opening 23 statement because we have testifying later some of 24 the nation's foremost experts on this. We're going 25 to hear from Donna Dethomas, founder of Million Mile 10 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 March, and we're going to hear from Alisa Barnes 3 who, in my view, is a hero. She is a woman who 4 litigated the Hamilton case, the NAACP case against 5 the gun industry, and I think history will show that 6 she was a pioneer who led the way to greater gun 7 safety, and they will lay out all the facts and 8 details. But suffice it to say, that the 9 irresponsible practices of the gun industry caused 10 hundreds, if not thousands, of preventable deaths 11 and shootings in New York City every single year, 12 and the tragedy of it is that the gun industry knows 13 exactly what they need to do to prevent these deaths 14 and injuries and they refuse to do it. 15 New Yorkers are under attack from the 16 firearm industry, and we have not just the right to 17 fight back, but this City on behalf of its citizens 18 has the obligation to fight back on behalf of New 19 Yorkers. 20 The best way that we have to force 21 the gun industry to act responsibly is through the 22 courts. It would be great if we had a Congress that 23 was going to ask, but the truth is we don't and 24 we're not, and until we do, we can't wait for that. 25 We have to act ourselves. 11 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 As you probably know, dozens of 3 cities and states and private individuals have filed 4 lawsuits against the gun industry trying to force 5 the manufacturers to clean up their act and act 6 responsibly. 7 Unfortunately, the courts have been 8 hostile to these lawsuits. I believe that's going to 9 change, but what we've seen is many courts, 10 including the New York State Court of Appeals and 11 the Hamilton case, have found technical reasons to 12 throw out lawsuits, and in fact, in Hamilton in 13 particular, the court said, well, the gun industry 14 may well be a bad act or may well cause deaths, but 15 we need the legislature to give us a standard of 16 liability. That's why Intro. 197 is so important. 17 Intro. 197 sets out a standard of 18 liability that litigants and private citizens can go 19 in and use to defend themselves against the harm 20 caused by the gun industry. 21 Mr. Chair, I thank you again for 22 holding this hearing. I very much look forward to 23 hearing the witnesses. 24 Thank you. 25 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 12 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Council member. I'd like to also welcome State 3 Senator Schneiderman, sitting in the back, who will 4 be testifying later on. 5 Council Member Eva Moskowitz. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, 7 Mr. Chair. 8 I also am not going to lay out the 9 statistics, which many of us know and are clearly 10 horrifying, in terms of the human lives lost and 11 damaged as a result of gun violence, the costs to 12 the City and society and so forth, I just want to 13 begin by saying that it seems to me that we have to 14 admit in the Year 2003, that even with the best law 15 enforcement in the world, and I believe surely in 16 New York City we have that, we are being hopelessly 17 outgunned. 18 My bill, the Gun Industry 19 Accountability Act, will extend strict liability to 20 gun manufacturers, dealers and importers for 21 injuries caused by their products when used to 22 commit crime. This will allow families to seek 23 compensation. 24 Now, strict liability is a concept 25 that is a little counter-intuitive, and it's 13 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 different from products liability because product 3 liability, the product has to be defective, and most 4 people say, well, guns are made to kill or harm in 5 some way. 6 But strict liability actually has a 7 very venerable history. It's not a concept, 8 obviously, invented. And the concept is important. 9 The notion is that a person producing 10 something that is inherently dangerous should be 11 held accountable for the harms that result. It 12 doesn't matter if the person has taken precautions 13 and care in the design of the product if innocent 14 people can be injured by the normal use of the 15 product. 16 That is the concept of strict 17 liability, and I just want to give an example of 18 where this concept applies. 19 Toxic waste is an example of where. 20 It doesn't matter if the manufacturer has taken 21 precautions. If that ends up in a landfill, by 22 accident, by any other means, the manufacturer, the 23 packager, is responsible. 24 Why should gun manufacturers be any 25 different? That, to me, is the starting question 14 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 that we have to ask. 3 If the disposal and manufacture of 4 toxic waste is considered to be a dangerous 5 activity, then surely producing and selling a 6 product designed specifically to kill is one of the 7 most inherently dangerous activities imaginable. 8 The simple fact is that gun 9 manufacturers profit from selling dangerous 10 products, and products that are in fact designed to 11 be dangerous. 12 Despite a recent statement by an NRA 13 spokesman that the gun industry is "cash poor," 14 statistics show that the American gun industry is a 15 billion dollar a year business. These corporations 16 don't just profit from the pain caused by their 17 products, they profit spectacularly from it. Some 18 groups argue that this is very broad, sweeping 19 legislation, and I certainly would have to admit 20 that it's pioneering, but I would hope that we 21 wouldn't reject it because of that. 22 Now, part of the criticisms made 23 against it is that this is a punitive bill, and I 24 just wanted to address that directly, because it's 25 actually the exact opposite. 15 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 This legislation provides incentives, 3 economic incentives for good behavior. The most 4 careful and conscientious companies are, the less 5 they will have to pay. 6 To be sure this bill pioneers a new 7 direction in the gun control movement, but I would 8 maintain that it's necessary because our current 9 efforts have clearly not been successful. 10 In the end this bill is quite simply 11 about accountability. It empowers mothers and 12 families and New Yorkers to tackle a billion dollar 13 industry that is tearing at the very fabric of our 14 neighborhoods. It's about finally taking a fight for 15 our City to the very doorsteps of the special 16 interests that are poisoning our streets. 17 This legislation is a powerful, 18 progressive and unique way to deal with the plague 19 of gun violence in our City. 20 I look forward very much to the 21 testimony from a variety of advocates and experts to 22 see what is the best way to get at a problem that I 23 think everyone at this table certainly, and most New 24 Yorkers, agree solving this problem has alluded us. 25 Thank you very much. 16 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 3 Council Member. 4 Council Member Sanders. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Thank you, 6 Chair Vallone. This is a very timely hearing, both 7 to honor, of course, our falling Council Member 8 Davis, but also to ensure that the City as a whole 9 is a safer place. So, I, too, commend everyone who 10 has done a lot of good work to bring these bills 11 forward. 12 Since the early 18th century, guns 13 and their misuse has troubled society, and this 14 problem is not simply a problem of poor communities. 15 This problem is a problem of the City as a whole, 16 perhaps even the nation. 17 My own district, the 31st, is the 18 third wealthiest in Queens, and the eighth 19 wealthiest in New York City, and even we are 20 troubled and hardpressed by the misuse of guns and 21 the trouble that that brings. 22 Today by passing Intro. 454-A, and 23 these other worthy intros, we can start to have some 24 impact on this problem. 25 The genesis of this Intro, my own, 17 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 was brought to me, of course, by Liz Goldsmith, who 3 is from Mothers Against Gun Violence, and her group, 4 of course, represent those who have been the 5 victims, their children were either slain or 6 seriously hurt by the misuse of guns. 7 Now, by no means should this Intro be 8 seen as an anti-gun legislation. It merely serves to 9 ensure that legal owners of guns are the only 10 purchasers of bullets. You should be legal if you're 11 buying bullets. 12 I personally believe in the 13 sacredness of the Sixth Amendment, so I'm very, very 14 clear that this is a limited move on a problem that 15 seems to be grossly ignored by the federal and state 16 government. But in New York City we must move on 17 this one. 18 So, I, too, look forward to hearing 19 and seeing these proceedings. 20 Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 22 It should be noted that Council 23 Member Sanders is an ex-Marine, and we appreciate 24 your expertise and input here today. I should also 25 divulge, I guess, openly, my own personal belief. I 18 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 was called in one of these daily papers a, I believe 3 "a rifle toting former Prosecutor," which is 4 technically correct, but I don't believe with all 5 the connotations that that phrase would impart, I do 6 own a small rifle. And I do believe, as my colleague 7 does, in the sacredness of the Second Amendment and 8 the right to own that rifle, however, I also believe 9 that society has an obligation to place restrictions 10 on the ownership of these weapons, to ensure that 11 only responsible people have access to these guns, 12 and that they are not diverted to the illegal 13 population or to irresponsible people. So that is my 14 own position. 15 And now I'd like to call on -- I'd 16 also like to welcome Council Member Jeff, and 17 perhaps future Council Member Jeffrey Davis. 18 Thank you for joining us today. And 19 also, my colleague Melinda Katz who has joined us, 20 my colleague from Queens, and Phil Reed. 21 Okay, then let me ask your indulgence 22 for one moment, members of the Police Department, 23 because I do have six members here of the Public 24 Safety Committee. I'm going to take a vote on the 25 members that are before us today. 19 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Jeffrey Davis, you're still here? You 3 should know that before you walked in, myself and 4 the other Council members mentioned that we were 5 having this hearing as quickly as we were to honor 6 your brother, and the great work you've done in this 7 regard. I know that I spoke to him often as 8 Subcommittee Chair of this Committee, regarding the 9 problem with guns, and we all know how hard he 10 worked to prevent violence of all different types in 11 this community. We mentioned that before you came in 12 and we just wanted you to know that, and we 13 appreciate you joining us today. 14 We've also been joined by Council 15 Member Dilan, a member of the Public Safety 16 Committee, and Council Member Reed, also a member of 17 the Public Safety Committee. Thank you both. 18 I can take out the sock puppets now 19 possible and kill some more time. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Mr. Chair, I 21 intend to make a brief statement explaining my vote, 22 perhaps I should do that now. 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I think that's a 24 very good idea, Council member. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: I wanted to 20 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 thank you for bringing these resolutions to a vote 3 today, and I particularly wanted to speak to the gun 4 show loophole, the resolution that calls on Congress 5 to close the gun show loophole. 6 When Congress passed the Brady Law in 7 1993, that had a very dramatic and immediate impact 8 on a criminal's ability to purchase guns from gun 9 dealers. In the ten, I guess it is, my goodness, ten 10 years since that law was passed, gun shows have 11 emerged as a major loophole, so criminals who are 12 prevented by Brady from going to recognized gun 13 outlets, go to gun shows, and study after study has 14 shown this. 15 Senators McCain and Lieberman, this 16 is not a democratic sort of bill, Senators John 17 McCain and Joseph Lieberman have introduced 18 legislation in the Senate and in House to close the 19 gun show loophole. It has been held up by the 20 Republican leadership in Congress, and it's 21 unconscionable because every day they wait, somebody 22 else is buying a gun at a gun show and then using it 23 in a crime. And, so, I commend you for bringing this 24 resolution to a vote. And I hope that it has the 25 effect that it ought to have on Congress. 21 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 4 Council Member. 5 Would anyone else like to be heard on 6 any of the measures we're voting on today, either 7 the closing of the Brady Bill loophole, the running 8 onto the sports fields, or calling on New York State 9 to do what we did here in New York City, to allow 10 access to a gun -- not allow access to a gun, if 11 anyone is convicted of domestic violence, any 12 assaults, or any three misdemeanors in a ten-year 13 period. 14 Council Member Reed. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Thank you, Mr. 16 Chair. 17 I also want to commend you for 18 bringing all of this forward. I know we have a lot 19 of testimony on other bills, but I just want to go 20 on record to say that it's insane for any civilized 21 city or society, as we see all of the havocs that's 22 going on, continue to acquiesce to lobbies that say 23 that this is the constitution, that they're 24 defending. I think that there's an agenda beyond 25 that. And I'm also pleased to see Dr. Barondess from 22 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 the New York Academy of Medicine here. I know that 3 he has been a leader in the fight as identifying gun 4 violence as a health problem here in America. I 5 think that's how we have to see it. So, I'm pleased 6 to have an opportunity to vote on these. Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 8 Council member. And now I believe we're ready to 9 call the vote. In the interest of saving time, and 10 because I don't believe there's any dissention up 11 here on these matters, we'll take votes on all three 12 at the same time. So, if you would like to vote no 13 on any of them, please specify that. 14 I would like to call the vote now. 15 COUNCIL CLERK: Vallone. 16 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: As sponsor of 17 all three of these measures, I proudly vote yes. As 18 one of the sponsors. 19 COUNCIL CLERK: Reed. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Aye on all. 21 COUNCIL CLERK: Dilan. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER DILAN: Aye on all. 23 COUNCIL CLERK: Foster. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Aye on all. 25 COUNCIL CLERK: Katz. 23 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 COUNCIL MEMBER KATZ: Aye on all. 3 COUNCIL CLERK: Yassky. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Aye on all. 5 COUNCIL CLERK: Gentile. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Chairman, I 7 vote aye on all. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, all. 9 And we'll keep that vote open for the remaining 10 members, some of whom are next door. 11 Okay, now I'd like to welcome our 12 first panel which consists of Criminal Justice 13 Coordinator John Feinblatt, and to members of the 14 Licensing Division, Captain Roy Richter and Thomas 15 Prasso. I believe the Criminal Justice Coordinator 16 will go first. 17 Thank you. 18 MR. FEINBLATT: Good morning, Mr. 19 Chairman, members of the Public Safety Committee, 20 and other members of the Council. My name is John 21 Feinblatt, and I am the Criminal Justice Coordinator 22 for the City of New York. I have been asked to 23 appear before the Council today to give testimony 24 regarding several items of proposed legislation all 25 concerning gun control. 24 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 I can say without exaggeration that 3 there is no more important public safety issue for 4 this City and for this Administration than the 5 possession, the sale and the use of firearms, and I 6 thank you for the opportunity to be heard on this 7 critical subject. 8 Let me begin by making one thing 9 crystal clear. The Bloomberg Administration is 100 10 percent committing to doing whatever it takes to 11 eradicate the scourge of gun violence from our City. 12 Despite remarkable decreases in the 13 number of shootings, down 70 percent over the last 14 ten years, the cold, hard fact is that innocent 15 people are still injured or killed as a result of 16 gun crime. 17 No matter how low the crime rate 18 falls, if even one missing person is victimized by 19 gun violence, that is still one too many. 20 Until the day that all New Yorkers 21 are safe from guns, we cannot be satisfied and we 22 must continue to do everything in our power to rid 23 them from our streets. 24 That is the police of the Bloomberg 25 Administration, and I know the Council is aware that 25 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 it goes well beyond mere words. It is a policy that 3 has translated into bold and aggressive action on 4 multiple fronts. 5 Perhaps the most visible example is 6 the way we have sharpened and intensified our street 7 level enforcement. 8 In January of this year, the New York 9 City Police Department launched a highly data driven 10 and a highly effective initiative called Operation 11 Impact. 12 By flooding a small number of impact 13 zones where crime is most concentrated with hundreds 14 of police officers, the Police Department has 15 achieved dramatic reduction in virtually every crime 16 category, but the result has been most particularly 17 impressive when it comes to guns and to gun 18 violence. 19 So far this year homicides have 20 fallen 38 percent in the impact zones and shooting 21 incidents have declined 34 percent. These results 22 speak for themselves. 23 The Cash for Guns Program has also 24 proven to be an effective tool for getting guns off 25 of our streets and out of the hands of people who 26 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 have absolutely no right to carry them. 3 Since its inception in May of 2002, 4 cash for guns has resulted in the surrender of over 5 2,400 guns, including 1,200 revolvers, more than 750 6 pistols, 145 sawed off shotguns and 58 assault 7 weapons. That's more than 2,400 guns that never will 8 be turned on another human being, a bargain at any 9 price. 10 In addition to enhancing our street 11 level enforcement, we have made efforts to improve 12 court dispositions for defendants who are charged 13 with possessing illegal guns. Launched in late April 14 of this year, the Brooklyn Gun Court is dedicated 15 exclusively to adjudicating felony gun possession 16 cases from five precincts in Brooklyn that suffer 17 from a disproportionate amount of gun violence. 18 Remarkably these precincts account 19 for half of the shootings in the borough and 25 20 percent of all shootings in the entire City. 21 The goal of this initiative is 22 simple, ensure that people who carry illegal guns go 23 to jail before they shoot someone else. 24 Since its inception in late April, 25 the Brooklyn Gun Court has yielded some promising 27 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 early returns. So far, 96 percent of the cases have 3 resulted in some form of incarceration, up 22 4 percent from the prior going rate in Brooklyn, and 5 the length of state prison sentences have increased 6 by 40 percent. 7 The bottom line is that more gun 8 felons are going to jail and they are going to jail 9 for longer. 10 We have turned up the heat on 11 criminals who possess and use firearms, but they are 12 not our only targets. We have also gone after gun 13 manufacturers. 14 As I know you are aware, the City has 15 brought a lawsuit against more than 30 firearm 16 manufacturers seeking money damages, as well as 17 injunctive relief. The non-monetary relief we seek 18 would force gun manufacturers to adopt responsible 19 practices designed to minimize the risk that their 20 weapons will find their way into the illegal 21 firearms market. 22 Our lawsuit is currently pending in 23 federal court and we intend to continue prosecuting 24 it aggressively. 25 Along similar lines, Mayor Bloomberg 28 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 has recently gone on record in opposition to a bill 3 pending before the United States Senate that would 4 effectively immunize gun manufacturers from civil 5 liability. 6 If passed, this bill would make the 7 gun industry the first industry in this country to 8 be legally exempt from its own negligent conduct. 9 It is the ultimate special interest 10 litigation and Mayor Bloomberg is actively lobbying 11 against it. 12 In fact, just today Mayor Bloomberg, 13 Mayor Daily of Chicago, and Mayor Hahn of Los 14 Angeles, have signed the letter urging members of 15 the Senate to defeat this destructive bill and I 16 would ask that this letter be distributed at this 17 time to members of the Council. 18 This Administration's aggressive 19 record on guns could not be clearer. We share the 20 Council's deep concern about gun violence, the 21 concern rendered even more urgent by the recent 22 tragedy that took the life of Council Member James 23 Davis. 24 For instance, we share your support 25 for the federal Blast Act, which creates a 29 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 nationwide ballistic fingerprint database, and we 3 share your support for extending the Brady law 4 background checks to gun shows, but at the same 5 time, we recognize, as I know the Council does, that 6 these are difficult legal and practical waters to 7 navigate, and in that spirit, I will discuss four of 8 the bills that the Council is considering. 9 Introduction No. 210, Introduction 10 No. 197, number 363 and number 487. 11 Let me begin with Introductions 210 12 and 197. At the outset, I can say without 13 reservation that this Administration shares the 14 sentiment underlying these bills. 15 In fact, it is fair to say that they 16 seek to accomplish through different means precisely 17 the same goals as the City's lawsuit and that is to 18 force gun manufacturers to behave responsibly. 19 The injunctive relief that the City 20 is demanding in its own lawsuit effectively seeks a 21 mandatory code of conduct for gun manufacturers. 22 Such a code of conduct could well contain many of 23 the same elements proposed in 210 and 197. But 24 because of this similarity and dependency of the 25 lawsuit, I am restrained from commenting publicly on 30 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 these bills. 3 In the interest of avoiding any 4 action that might jeopardize the City's lawsuit, a 5 sentiment that I know that the Council shares, I 6 most respectively decline to comment specifically on 7 the legislation. 8 Introductions 363 and 487 do not 9 intersect as closely with the subject matter of our 10 litigation, so I am not similarly restrained from 11 commenting. 12 Introduction 363 makes the issuance 13 of a rifle or shotgun license contingent upon the 14 applicants having a liability insurance in the 15 amount of at least $250,000. 16 While we agree with the bill's stated 17 purpose requiring gun owners to bear their fair 18 share of the cost inherent in gun ownership, we do 19 believe that there are practical problems with this 20 legislation. 21 The insurance required by 363 must 22 cover "any harm or damage that might arise out of 23 the use" of a rifle or shotgun, including unlawful 24 use. 25 While I do not pretend by any means 31 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 to be an expert on insurance coverage, I have been 3 advised by those who are, that personal liability 4 policies contain a standard exclusion for criminal 5 conduct. 6 So, to borrow the Council's 7 automobile insurance analogy, it is true that a 8 personal liability policy would cover a driver if he 9 injured someone in a car accident, but it would 10 never cover him if he intentionally ran over a 11 pedestrian. 12 Likewise, we are not aware of any 13 insurance policy that would cover a rifle owner if 14 he intentionally shot someone, or even if his rifle 15 were stolen and then used to shoot someone. 16 Turning now to 487. We once again 17 support the principle of creating strong incentives 18 for gun manufacturers to behave responsibly. 19 However, we have concerns that this 20 particular bill cast too wide an end. 21 Introduction 487 creates a private 22 cause of action that holds gun manufacturers and 23 dealers strictly liable for injury or death caused 24 by their weapons within the boundaries of New York 25 City. This could result in unintended consequences. 32 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 For instance, if a police officer's 3 service weapon were stolen and then used to shoot 4 someone, the manufacturer of that gun could be held 5 strictly liable for money damages. The same result 6 would follow if a legally-owned gun were stolen from 7 a civilian and used to commit a murder. One other 8 example. 9 If someone commits suicide with a 10 legally purchased and licensed firearm, the 11 manufacturer of that firearm could be held strictly 12 liable for that person's estate. 13 As a practical matter, the threat of 14 unlimited liability without fault will effectively 15 prevent gun manufacturers from selling weapons to 16 anyone in New York City, including the Police 17 Department. 18 So, while we agree with the spirit of 19 487, we also believe that it is overbroad. As I said 20 at the outset, there is no more serious public 21 safety issue for New Yorkers than guns. It is a 22 complex, multi-faceted problem with stakes that 23 could not be higher. 24 And, so, when considering solutions, 25 nothing, nothing whatsoever should be off the table. 33 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 As the City's Criminal Justice 3 Coordinator, I would like to take this opportunity 4 to suggest an area in which improvements would have 5 the most profound impact on the safety of our 6 residents and visitors, the area of gun crime. 7 If I may, let me give you a bit of 8 history. In 1980, the New York State Legislature 9 passed a law that imposed a mandatory minimum 10 one-year jail sentence for defendants convicted of 11 felony gun possession. 12 At the time it was hailed as a get 13 tough measure for illegal guns and a clear measure 14 to gun criminals that the revolving door that they 15 had been spinning through for years was about to 16 slam shut. 17 But while the new penal law statute 18 certainly read tough, it also contained a loophole, 19 and I have to tell you, it was a loophole that you 20 could drive a MAC truck through. 21 It allowed judges to disregard the 22 mandatory minimum that they found the one-year 23 sentence to be unduly harsh, and if they felt the 24 alternative sentence would be consistent with the 25 public safety. 34 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 To put it another way, judges were 3 granted the discretion to disregard the one-year 4 minimum at will. 5 Some 20 years later the exception has 6 swallowed the rule. In fact, a one-year sentence is 7 the exception in this case. 8 Listening to the numbers. In 2001, 9 the most recent year for which full sentence data is 10 available, 26 percent of all defendants convicted of 11 possessing loaded illegal handguns received no jail 12 time whatsoever. And how many of those who got 13 convicted received the mandatory one-year sentence? 14 I'm afraid that I have to report that less than half 15 got sentenced to a full year in jail, the minimum 16 that this new law guaranteed in all but the most 17 exceptional cases. 18 The bottom line is that the mandatory 19 minimum law is rhetoric. The vast majority of the 20 guns that cause damage to life and to limb in this 21 City are possessed illegally. And the cold hard fact 22 is that criminals who carry them are getting slapped 23 on the wrist, even defendants with recent and 24 chronic records. Every time that a gun felon passes 25 through this revolving door on his way back to the 35 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 street we are sending a dangerous message. We are 3 saying that there will be little or no consequence 4 for possessing illegal handguns in this City, and we 5 are giving criminals very little incentive to stop. 6 Needless to say, that is the wrong message. 7 While action must certainly be taken 8 by the State Legislature to close the loopholes in 9 the current law, swift action must also be taken by 10 the judiciary to change sentencing practices, 11 because it is the judiciary in large part who 12 transformed this exception into business as usual. 13 To be perfectly blunt, many judges in this City take 14 advantage of the discretion that Albany has given 15 them. It is an inescapable fact the law needs to 16 change, as does the mindset of those entrusted with 17 carrying it out. Simply put, public safety depends 18 on it. 19 Like the City, the Council has 20 correctly identified the need to send a strong 21 message to gun manufacturers and this Administration 22 applauds you for it. 23 It is right, and it is smart to take 24 action against those who reside beyond our borders 25 profit from products that cause harm to the people 36 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 of this City. 3 But in doing so, let us not ignore 4 the fact that there is even a bigger problem in our 5 own back yard, and that problem is the state gun 6 laws and the judges who apply them. 7 Let us not forget that it is just 8 important to send an equally strong message to the 9 criminals who carry guns illegally, gun crime 10 requires both a gun and a criminal, and if we're 11 going to eradicate it, we need to work on both sides 12 of this equation and if we are serious about making 13 a difference, then we all need to work together on 14 it. 15 We would welcome the opportunity to 16 collaborate with the Council as we have in the past 17 to develop gun legislation that will survive legal 18 challenge, allow the police to do their job, and 19 keep all New Yorkers safe from gun violence. 20 Thank you very much, and I will now 21 ask my colleagues in the Police Department to 22 comment on two other parts of the legislative 23 package. 24 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Before you do, I 25 would like to recognize we've been joined by Council 37 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Member Comrie, my colleague from Queens, who is not 3 a member of this Committee but who feels so 4 importantly about these items that he's here today. 5 Let me just also mention, you spoke 6 about the loophole that exists, and I'd like to 7 introduce some even more sobering facts. 8 I'm a former prosecutor here from 9 Manhattan, six years, prosecuted many gun cases, and 10 when you said 50 percent of the people get one year 11 in jail, I was astounded, because I've never, I 12 shouldn't say never, but almost never seen someone 13 get the one year in jail. The 50 percent I'm 14 assuming includes the fact that many people who have 15 a gun are committing another crime, and they usually 16 get sentenced to that one year concurrently with a 17 sentence for some other crime. Someone who just has 18 a gun and is arrested, I would seriously doubt that 19 50 percent of them go to jail. So, you're absolutely 20 right, there is a huge loophole here in the law, and 21 at the next Council meeting I will be introducing a 22 resolution, based on your recommendation, to tighten 23 up that loophole a little bit. 24 So, thank you, and continue. 25 MR. PRASSO: Good morning, Mr. 38 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Chairman, and members of the Council. I am Thomas 3 Prasso, Director of the License Division of the New 4 York City Police Department, and I'm pleased to be 5 here today on behalf of Police Commissioner Raymond 6 W. Kelly to discuss two of the bills before you, 7 Intro. Nos 454 and 536. 8 Before specifically addressing the 9 bills, please allow me to present a brief overview 10 of the mission of the License Division. 11 Our mission is to ensure that the 12 requirements set forth in local, state and federal 13 law are uniformly applied to the process of 14 licensing handguns, rifles and shotguns and 15 designating special patrolmen in a courteous, 16 expeditious and professional manner. 17 In order to accomplish that mission, 18 the License Division employs a number of civilian 19 and uniformed investigators who review handgun 20 license and rifle, shotgun permit applications, to 21 determine if the person applying meets the 22 requirements enumerated in our local laws and rules, 23 the New York State penal law and the applicable 24 federal statutes. 25 In addition to processing new 39 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 applications, the License Division also tracks the 3 status of existing licenses and processes renewal 4 applications as those licenses expire. 5 The License Division also monitors 6 compliance with the rules governing licenses and 7 permits as set forth in Title 38 of the rules of the 8 City of New York, in order to ensure that those 9 rules are followed. To this end, the License 10 Division maintains a team of investigators who 11 follow-up on incidents involving licensees or permit 12 holders to determine their fitness to continue 13 firearms privileges. Rule violations may result in 14 suspension or permanent revocation of the license or 15 permit. 16 Now I would like to focus on the 17 bills before you. Intro. 454 would conform the 18 Administrative Code of the City Charter, to the City 19 Charter, in raising the minimum age to obtain a 20 rifle shotgun permit to 21. 21 However, this suggested that the 22 Council might wish to consider other conforming 23 amendments, either to the Administrative Code or the 24 Charter, such as the exemptions contained in Charter 25 Section 465, which differs slightly from the 40 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 exemptions contained in Administrative Code Section 3 10-305. 4 The bill would also require dealers 5 who sell ammunition to make a record of identifying 6 information for rifles or shotguns which the 7 ammunition is purchased. The Police Department 8 supports this concept in requiring a higher level of 9 information to be recorded by dealers selling 10 ammunition to rifle shotgun permitees. 11 We also support the amendment to 12 subdivision E of section 10-306 requiring the 13 information to be made available to state and local 14 law enforcement agencies. 15 Intro. 536 would prevent a gun dealer 16 from selling more than one rifle or shotgun per 17 transaction, and from selling a rifle or a shotgun 18 to a person if the dealer knows or should know that 19 the person has purchased the weapon in the last 90 20 days. 21 While the intent of the bill is 22 understandable, the Council may wish to consider two 23 issues relevant to enacting the bill. 24 First, we note that most crime 25 committed by the use of guns do not involve people 41 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 who have rifle shotgun permits. 3 Second, with respect to budget 4 implications, should the bill be enacted, it is 5 estimated that the License Division would be 6 required to hire up to four additional police 7 administrative aids at a cost of over $150,000 per 8 year to respond to inquiries by dealers seeking 9 information regarding whether and when respective 10 purchases last acquired a handgun, rifle or shotgun. 11 It should also be noted that there is 12 no stated penalty for violating the prohibitions 13 contained in the bill, and the bill does not contain 14 an exception for purchases by police officers, peace 15 officers or law enforcement agencies. 16 Thank you for the opportunity to 17 speak with you today, and I am available to answer 18 any questions you may have. 19 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 20 Are there any other statements? 21 Can you just identify yourself for 22 the record. 23 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I'm Captain Roy 24 Richter, the Commanding Officer of the License 25 Division. 42 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 3 Captain, for coming down. 4 Let me just start for simplicity 5 sake, for what you just testified to, Mr. Prasso. 6 Thank you for your support of Council 7 Member Sanders' bill, which would require gun 8 dealers to actually record the information regarding 9 the ammunition that they're selling. 10 Right now they do have to actually 11 see a certificate registration for the weapon when 12 they're selling this ammunition, but they don't have 13 to record it, so no one knows if they actually see 14 it. And I'm co-sponsoring Council Member Sanders' 15 bill, I think it's a great idea and we're proud to 16 have your support, and we will make the changes. 17 On the rifle bill, every 90 days, is 18 mine. I agree with you, it's not legal rifles that 19 are used in crimes here in New York City for the 20 most part, and, unfortunately, as I said before, we 21 don't have control over the handguns. We are, 22 though, calling on Albany to do the same for 23 handguns, one every 90-day period. I cannot think of 24 any reason that a law-abiding person would need more 25 than one handgun every 90-day period. So, once we 43 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 hopefully convince Albany to do that, then I think 3 the $150,000 spent to hire some new people will be 4 well spent. But thank you for that. 5 Commissioner Feinblatt, let me first 6 commend all of you for the work that's been done and 7 that you testified to by the City already, the Cash 8 for Guns Program, Operation Impact especially, the 9 Brooklyn Gun Court, your lawsuit, which I know will 10 be addressed down the road, and Mayor Bloomberg's 11 letter today, very well timed, regarding the federal 12 lawsuits, or federal bill, to hold gun manufacturers 13 immune. 14 I support the Mayor's effort, as I 15 assume most members, if not all, here do, and I will 16 be hopefully adding our support, this Committee's 17 and this Council's support to the Mayor's efforts in 18 that regard. 19 You testified about both bills here 20 today regarding strict liability, and let me just, 21 for those of you who are confused, there are two 22 bills here today regarding strict liability for gun 23 manufacturers. One would hold gun manufacturers 24 liable, if they failed to adhere to a code of 25 conduct. The other would hold gun manufacturers 44 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 liable regardless of their practices for any injury 3 caused by that gun. So, that is the difference. 4 There are two separate bills we are looking at 5 today, and I believe from your testimony you 6 supported the code of conduct, or at least look 7 favorably on it, and thought the strict liability 8 bill was too broad. 9 I happen to personally agree with you 10 in that regard, and as you do applaud the intent 11 behind the broader strict liability bill, I believe 12 that it will be counter-productive, especially in 13 light of the letter the Mayor just sent regarding 14 the immunity from prosecutions bill. Some people may 15 not realize that right now in Washington this bill 16 exists, and it's only about five votes short of 17 passing, a bill that will immunize gun manufacturers 18 from liability, even if they are negligent, even if 19 they're found to be selling guns to criminals. 20 So, many gun advocates will come here 21 today, and I've already counteracted this Committee 22 to not support this strict liability bill because 23 they believe it might work against the immunization 24 effort in Washington. So, again, while it is well 25 intended, it might have the opposite affect, and I 45 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 also happen to disagree with the concept behind 3 strict liability for gun owners. It will do more 4 than just prevent gun manufacturers from selling 5 here in New York City, it will most likely drive 6 them out of business, which may not be the intent of 7 the bill but will be the practical result of the 8 bill, and that would run afoul of our second 9 amendment right to own these weapons. 10 So, I am going to go for questions 11 first to the sponsor of the liability bill which 12 does include a code of conduct, a member of this 13 Committee, Council Member Yassky. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Thank you, 15 Chair Vallone. And Mr. Feinblatt, let me also 16 commend you and the Mayor for getting involved in 17 the fight against the immunity bill. 18 I believe that the bills we are 19 considering here today force the gun industry to 20 adopt a code of responsible conduct, I believe that 21 bill is of historic significance and I believe it 22 will do an enormous amount of good once it's passed. 23 But all of that will be for naught, if the National 24 Rifle Association succeeds in its scurrilous efforts 25 to immunize the gun industry from liability, and I 46 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 believe the NRA should be ashamed of itself for 3 this. They are seeking an immunity that no other 4 industry has, that not cars, not households, 5 ordinary household products, if they're made poorly 6 they're liable to suit, and, yet, guns, the most 7 dangerous of all consumer products, the NRA is 8 seeking legislation to protect them from liability, 9 I find that just an astonishing amount of uberous. 10 I have just one question for you, and 11 as the sponsor of Intro. 197 I appreciate your 12 comment that that bill has precisely the same goal 13 as the City's lawsuit, and I respect that you don't 14 want to comment in any way that would then affect 15 your either litigation or your settlement 16 negotiation, but let me just ask you this question 17 and if you can answer it. 18 The purpose of 197 is to force the 19 gun industry to stop multiple sales, don't sell ten 20 to 15 guns at one time to one individual; to stop 21 selling to kitchen table dealers, people who sell 22 guns out of their home or out of their car and don't 23 have a store front where they can be monitored and 24 the law enforcement folks can do their job; to train 25 their employees to spot the straw purchasers that 47 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 are the critical link in the illegal supply chain 3 and most important of all, to shut down that handful 4 of bad apple dealers who supply half of the crime 5 guns in this country. The gun industry knows who 6 those folks are, and they have every ability to 7 police themselves and to put those folks out of 8 business. And my question to you is, if we 9 accomplish this, if we did force the gun issue to 10 adopt this code of conduct, do you believe that 11 hundreds of shootings would be prevented by doing 12 that? 13 MR. FEINBLATT: I think that clearly 14 there are experts in this field that believe that if 15 we were to force the gun manufacturers to adopt the 16 code of conduct, that it would clearly have a 17 measurable impact on the flow of guns into illegal 18 hands. And, so, it is something that we feel 19 strongly about. 20 I will also repeat that there are two 21 sides to this equation. We have to focus on the gun 22 manufacturers and we also have to focus on the 23 criminals, and the Bloomberg Administration believes 24 that if we focus in both of those areas we can have 25 a demonstrable impact on gun violence. 48 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Thank you. I 3 won't ask a further question, but let me say, you 4 know, of course that's correct, I 100 percent 5 support mandatory tough sentences for illegal gun 6 dealers, and you know that when you look at it, you 7 see that illegal gun traffickers serve about half 8 the time as illegal drug traffickers. To me that's 9 just absolutely the wrong ratio. The gun traffickers 10 are doing far more damage, and, yes, of course you 11 need tough sentencing. 12 But I want to say to the gun industry 13 that if you put your -- if I put a loaded gun, if I 14 put a loaded gun out on my front stoop, and then I 15 turn my back and I don't look to see who is going to 16 pick it up, if that gun shoots somebody, I'm at 17 fault. And what the gun industry does is no 18 different, it's just a little less obvious. And, of 19 course the shooter is responsible, but so too is the 20 industry that put the gun in the shooter's hands for 21 profit. Thank you. 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 23 Council Member. 24 I now would like to go to the sponsor 25 of the strict liability bill, who has done an 49 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 amazing amount of work with regard to our efforts 3 today, Council Member Moskowitz. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you 5 very much, Mr. Chair. 6 I also want to say that the work that 7 our law enforcement community has done in New York 8 City is quite remarkable, and for me the reason to 9 have a bill like 487 is simply because you are 10 out-gunned. Even if you were doing the best job in 11 the world, you just are at the mercy of an industry. 12 But I wanted to focus my questions on 13 Mr. Feinblatt, your testimony specifically about 14 Intro. 487. 15 You say that as a practical matter 16 the threat of unlimited liability without fault will 17 effectively prevent gun manufacturers from selling 18 weapons. Those are strong words, and I'm wondering 19 if that has happened to your knowledge for any other 20 product or service where strict liability is 21 imposed. 22 In other words, you're making a very 23 strong claim that this is going to put manufacturers 24 out of business, as far as I know there is still a 25 big toxic waste business and strict liability has 50 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 not put that out of business, and I was wondering 3 why you think it will happen in the gun industry, 4 even though it hasn't happened in other industries. 5 MR. FEINBLATT: You know as well as I 6 do that strict liability is an extremely powerful 7 tool and an extremely sometimes imprecise tool, and 8 that's what I'm pointing out here and I think that 9 while there is an attractiveness about strict 10 liability, we all at the end of the day have to 11 realize that it can sometimes have unintended 12 consequences. And that is the point -- 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: But you've 14 made a very precise claim, and I'm just wondering if 15 you have any evidence for that claim? 16 In other words, you are saying here 17 that this will effectively prevent gun manufacturers 18 from selling weapons. 19 MR. FEINBLATT: I think it is highly 20 likely. None of us have a crystal ball. You don't 21 have a crystal ball, I don't have a crystal ball, 22 but it is highly likely that this will stop the sale 23 of guns in the City, and that is something that one 24 has to always ask that question, will you legislate 25 more broadly than you intend to in the strict 51 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 liability arena. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: You have no 4 specific evidence -- 5 MR. FEINBLATT: Councilman, you don't 6 have a crystal ball, I don't have a crystal ball. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Well, we 8 don't have a crystal ball but what we do have is 9 other examples of industries where it hasn't 10 happened, and it's a very strong statement and it's 11 likely to seem to be persuasive. I'm sure this will 12 appear in an NRA pamphlet, that Mr. Feinblatt of the 13 New York City Criminal Justice Coordinator says, 14 that as a practical matter this will effectively 15 prevent gun manufacturers from selling weapons, and 16 since it is a strong statement, and I don't think 17 that there is -- it's not a question of crystal 18 ball, I don't think there is a shred of evidence for 19 that, and in fact, on the other side of the 20 equation, there is ample evidence that strict 21 liability has not put industries out of business. 22 Let me just move on to -- 23 MR. FEINBLATT: One distinction we 24 have to make, though, when you look at this, and I 25 am not an expert in the area of toxic waste, toxic 52 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 waste is different than guns. Toxic waste is by its 3 very nature evil. Guns used by the New York Police 4 Department are not. And there is a distinction that 5 we must make in that area. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: So the 7 public and everyone is clear, that 487 has an 8 exemption for a law enforcement working in the 9 normal course of their activity, just so there's no 10 misunderstanding. 11 Thank you. 12 Let me just ask, it wasn't clear to 13 me what the position of the New York City Police 14 Department is on 487; is there a position? 15 MR. FEINBLATT: I think I'm speaking 16 for the City. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Oh, I see, 18 okay. 19 MR. FEINBLATT: Okay. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Let me ask 21 one other question. As I think was mentioned, or 22 perhaps people have heard about, there is clearly 23 some reservation on the part of the gun control 24 advocates for this pioneering bill that is mine, the 25 gun accountability act of 2003. Some of it was 53 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 referenced by my colleague David Yassky, there's a 3 tactical difference about what is going to happen in 4 Washington, some of it substantive. 5 One of the objections, and I wanted 6 to kind of get your views, struck me as very odd, 7 the American Gun Safety in its testimony, Americans 8 for Gun Safety, has three examples where they 9 believe that my bill would be problematic, and one 10 is a local Police Department sells used handguns to 11 a firearms dealer, which is then sold to a straw 12 buyer. The straw buyer in this context -- sold to a 13 straw buyer. 14 Now, I guess I have one factual 15 question, does our New York City Police Department 16 sell guns? 17 CAPTAIN RICHTER: No. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: No. So, 19 just to be totally clear on that, the New York City 20 Police Department does not ever sell guns that it 21 confiscates? 22 CAPTAIN RICHTER: That's correct. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: And why 24 don't you, as opposed to apparently other local 25 Police Departments? 54 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CAPTAIN RICHTER: It's a policy 3 decision. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: I know, but 5 what's the reason for the policy decision? 6 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I couldn't comment 7 on that right now. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Okay, I'll 9 comment. It's a really bad idea. Having the Police 10 Department selling guns. I mean, talk about an 11 oxymoron that is quite remarkable. I just find it 12 odd that this would somehow be a reason not to 13 embrace a strict liability. It is controversial, 14 it's pioneering, it requires legally thinking 15 through implications. I don't think it's an open and 16 shut case, but I think it's certainly worthy of 17 consideration, and I would hate to think that the 18 selling of guns by local Police Departments is any 19 kind of reason not to support strict liability. 20 Thank you very much. 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 22 Council member. 23 Let me also say, since I was on the 24 record as saying that this would put the gun 25 business out of business. I mean, I'm a former 55 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 attorney, there is no other product, except perhaps 3 toxic waste, and I haven't done the research on that 4 and that's not a product, it's a by-product, where a 5 product is legally manufactured and possessed, and 6 where strict liability rises with no showing of 7 negligence. I cannot think of one other product that 8 this would relate to, and therefore that's why you 9 can't point at the statistics you're looking for, 10 where you can show another industry this has 11 happened to. 12 If you have one, I'm happy to hear 13 about it, and I'll look into it, but I don't know of 14 any other product where strict liability exists 15 without any showing of negligence. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: If I may, 17 Mr. Chair, just make a brief comment? 18 Strict liability is a pioneering 19 concept. There aren't a whole lot of products, but 20 there are some. Explosives. Another example where 21 there is a concept of strict liability. But you're 22 right, we don't have enough of these. The toxic 23 waste industry is a relatively new industry, and 24 there's an open-ended question. I just would ask 25 that we keep our minds open, particularly because 56 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 we're not succeeding with traditional methods. 3 Thank you very much. 4 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 5 You're right, explosives, the strict liability 6 regarding the use of explosives. If you injure 7 someone you're assumed to be negligent, not the 8 manufacturer. But as you said, thinking out of the 9 box, I appreciate that. 10 Council Member Sanders. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Thank you, 12 Mr. Chair. 13 I also want to chime in to Mr. 14 Feinblatt about a hasty statement a little earlier, 15 you mentioned a little earlier, about toxic waste, 16 and I'm sure it was in the course of conversation, 17 where outside of the military, some parts of the 18 military no one manufactures toxic waste for the 19 purpose of it being toxic. They're doing it as a 20 by-product of something else, and even inside the 21 military wouldn't be considered toxic waste, it will 22 be something else. 23 I did see Ms. Goldsmith in here a 24 moment or two ago, I'm not sure. She is in here. I 25 want to commend her as an example of what government 57 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 should be, where my bill is actually her bill, she's 3 the true author where a constituent, an average 4 citizen came to an elected official and saw a 5 problem and managed to get it to this level, and I 6 encourage all New Yorkers to do similar. 7 In terms of these statements earlier, 8 I'm very interested in Intro. 454-A on whatever 9 modification the Police Department has to make it 10 more effective. I'm sure that working together we 11 can put something good for the people of New York 12 forward. 13 I do have a concern about Intro. 536, 14 and I understand that there is a target practice. 15 There are many people who use rifles and pistols for 16 target practice, and I am concerned that a husband 17 and wife, a father and a daughter, or whatever, may 18 not be able to buy two rifles at the same time under 19 this law. So, it's just a concern. 20 Having said that, I will turn this 21 back to you, Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 23 James. 24 Council Member Foster. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Thank you. I 58 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 have a brief question. 3 First of all, I'd like to thank the 4 panel, and before I get to my question I'd just like 5 to say that in reference to guns in the Police 6 Department there are some times where the guns are 7 in the right hand and used wrongly, and I think if 8 we asked the families of Bumpers and Diallo, that 9 they might think it's just as bad as toxic waste. 10 But my question is just for clarification. 11 Director Prasso, second to last 12 paragraph when you say the bill does not contain an 13 exemption for purchased by police officers, peace 14 officers and law enforcement agencies; do you mean 15 that there is no exemption for these individuals to 16 purchase a gun in their capacity as a police 17 officer, a peace officer or a law enforcement agency 18 officer? Or should there be an exemption because 19 they are in these positions? 20 MR. PRASSO: I believe we are looking 21 for an exemption for people who are in those 22 positions in order to make those purchases. That's 23 our concern with the bill. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: So it would be 25 because they're in this specific field they should 59 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 be given an exemption, as opposed to needing the 3 exemption to purchase the weapons for work? 4 MR. PRASSO: Well, police officers are 5 permitted under New York, I'm talk about police 6 officers in particular now, New York State law, to 7 purchase weapons when and if they want them. 8 This rule, bill would limit their 9 ability to do so, and we don't really believe it's 10 appropriate. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 13 Council Member, very interesting observation. 14 Because it is a bill that I wrote and I didn't take 15 that into consideration, it's something we need to 16 think about, we will be contacting you on that. 17 For purposes of planning, there are 18 no more questions from Council members for this 19 panel, so we will be taking -- yes, after this one 20 set of questions by Council Member Gentile, we will 21 be taking a short break followed by Senator 22 Schneiderman, and then panels on either side of this 23 issue, made up of leading advocates from all over 24 the country. 25 The first panel after the senator 60 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 will be Dr. Jeremiah Barondess from Doctors Against 3 Handgun Injury, and two people who were the 4 architects of the lawsuit against the gun 5 manufacturers, Alisa Barnes and Lucy Allen from the 6 Economic Consulting. That will happen after a short 7 break, but first we will go to Council Member 8 Gentile. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Thank you, 10 Chairman. 11 Mr. Feinblatt, I'm pretty clear on 12 your position, or the City's position on the bills 13 that we talked about, I'm just curious about your 14 discussion on the Brooklyn Gun Court, and your 15 praise of the Brooklyn Gun Court and then soon 16 thereafter talking about the felony gun possession 17 loophole and what that loophole has produced over 18 the last several years. 19 Now, many of us in this panel have 20 been prosecutors, and we've been in gun parts 21 before. There have been gun parts I think in every 22 borough of this City. 23 What in your opinion is happening in 24 this Brooklyn Gun Court that has made this 25 different? 61 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 MR. FEINBLATT: Well, I think that 3 there are several advantages to the approach. One 4 is, as you know, it really only concentrates on five 5 precincts, and, so, there becomes a very close 6 relationship between the police and the prosecutors 7 and really trying to understand what's going on on 8 the street in those five precincts. I think that 9 what we have also done is set unprecedented time 10 lines where we're requiring that the cases be 11 disposed of in 180 days which is much faster than as 12 you know, than the average. 13 The other advantage is that we have 14 dedicated prosecutors working in those parts and, 15 so, it avoids some of the inevitable sort of 16 shifting of cases from prosecutor to prosecutor, 17 and, of course, we have one judge. And we have a 18 trial back-up card -- the judge actually both hears 19 the motions in the case and tries the case and so 20 there's not forum shopping. And, so, I think that 21 what you can say is we closed all the loopholes, 22 we're making sure things aren't able to fall through 23 the cracks, and we're basically having a judge that 24 is able to say the buck stops here, and we're going 25 to arraign the indictment, I'm going to hear the 62 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 motions and I'm going to try the case, there's no 3 other place to go. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: So what 5 you're saying in effect is that the loophole in the 6 law for the unduly harsh sentence is not being used 7 in those parts; is that what you're saying? 8 MR. FEINBLATT: I would say if you 9 look at those parts, the product of the Brooklyn Gun 10 Court, if you look at the disposition from those in 11 that part, you see that it is very different from 12 the disposition in Brooklyn as a whole or other 13 parts of the City as a whole. And that is not to say 14 that we shouldn't go to the legislature. We 15 absolutely should. There is too big a loophole in 16 the law, we need to close the law today, judges need 17 to start having a different mindset about guns. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: That raises 19 my next question. What efforts have you made with 20 the State Legislature to close that loophole? 21 MR. FEINBLATT: Well, we are actually 22 beginning discussions, and have started to have 23 discussions with them, and of course, I would hope 24 that the Council would also take the step of a 25 resolution in this area. 63 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 It is absolutely necessary that we 3 have the loophole closed here. 4 This is a discussion in large part 5 about holding gun manufacturers liable, but all of 6 us who have studied this area know that the best 7 law, whether it's a strict liability law or whether 8 it's another type of law, there will still be 9 illegal guns that get into the hands of criminals, 10 and that is going to happen and what we have to do 11 is make sure that when illegal guns get into the 12 hands of criminals, that we send an absolutely 13 unambiguous message, and that message has to be 14 jail. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: What efforts 16 have you made to replicate what's going on in the 17 Brooklyn Gun Court throughout this City? 18 MR. FEINBLATT: Well, we are looking 19 at other boroughs actually at this time. We thought 20 it was smart to start in one borough and test the 21 results. We're getting data that is encouraging to 22 us but it's early, but I would expect that if that 23 data continues to be as encouraging as it has been, 24 that we would move into other boroughs. 25 There is no doubt that you have to 64 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 work on many levels in this area, as I know the 3 Council is aware of, and so expansion of the 4 demonstration project in Brooklyn is one, going to 5 the State Legislature is another, holding gun 6 manufacturers liable is another. We need to do all. 7 This is not a choice that we need to make, is one 8 approach smarter than the other, what we need to do 9 is work together on all of the approaches, because 10 gun violence requires a gun and it requires a 11 criminal, and, so, we need to work on the 12 proliferation of guns, the illegal sale of guns, 13 through the types of the legislation that we're 14 discussing today, we need to work on it through the 15 litigation that the City has been hard at work on 16 for the past three years, and we need closer to home 17 in our own back yard to make sure that our own state 18 laws are absolutely sending the right message, and 19 the right message when it comes to firearms is jail. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: And that 21 discussion with the Albany leadership is continuing, 22 or has started? 23 MR. FEINBLATT: Yes, absolutely we 24 have begun these discussions. We cannot have a law 25 that is only good on paper, it's rhetoric; we have 65 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 to have a law that actually translates into actual 3 action in the courtroom. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Thank you, 5 Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 7 Council member. We appreciate your input as a former 8 prosecutor, as well as Helen Foster. 9 Council Member Reed. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Yes. I just, in 11 thinking through a lot of what's happening here, and 12 the question that Council Member Moskowitz asked, 13 what does the Police Department do with confiscated 14 firearms? 15 MR. PRASSO: If they're used as 16 evidence in court, they're held until such time as 17 the court no longer needs them, and then they're 18 ultimately destroyed. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: So, all 20 confiscated firearms are destroyed? 21 MR. PRASSO: To the best of my 22 knowledge, yes. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: And that goes 24 for the court system, too? Where we periodically see 25 you on TV, the number of guns that are taken away 66 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 from people as they try to enter the court room, 3 which to me is unbelievable that anybody would try 4 to bring a weapon into the court room, but does that 5 become the property of the Police Department as 6 well, or is that something different? 7 MR. PRASSO: I'm not sure I understand 8 you, Councilman. You're referring to guns that 9 people surrender when they enter a court room? 10 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: No, they attempt 11 to bring them in and then they're confiscated at the 12 check points in the courtroom. 13 MR. PRASSO: So, those people would be 14 arrested, correct? 15 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Right. Those are 16 court officers. Does that become the property of -- 17 MR. PRASSO: The property eventually 18 enters into the custody of the New York City Police 19 Department's Property Clerk Division, and when the 20 guns are no longer needed for any criminal 21 proceedings they're destroyed. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: And what is the 23 policy that if someone has a legal gun but they 24 attempt to bring it into a situation where they 25 shouldn't and it's taken away, do we just hold it 67 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 and then give it back to them when they leave the 3 premises, or do we see that as a violation? 4 CAPTAIN RICHTER: My experience, and 5 actually it's only from personal experience, is that 6 it's returned to me after it's safe guarded at the 7 entrance to the court. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: So, even though 9 someone owns a legal handgun, knows perfectly well 10 that there's a sign that says you can't bring a 11 handgun in here, just like right over there, the 12 checkpoint here, magnetometer, and then they try to 13 bring it in and they find that they have it, it's 14 taken away, confiscated, we give it back to them? 15 Doesn't dumb count for anything? 16 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I'm not quite sure 17 specifically what you're referring to; however, if I 18 was on personal business, going to -- 19 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: You're talking 20 about yourself? 21 CAPTAIN RICHTER: Talking about 22 myself, a police officer -- 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Please speak 24 into the mic. 25 CAPTAIN RICHTER: Any police officer 68 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 as defined under 120 of the criminal procedure law, 3 on personal business, my understanding is the court 4 administration has a policy that personal business, 5 you cannot bring your firearm into the court room. 6 The court offices safeguard the 7 firearm, it's locked up and on your exit of the 8 court room it's returned to you. Or you can just not 9 enter the court room, or you can be denied entrance. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: I understand 11 that. I would assume in that case you would have 12 told the court officers that you're carrying a gun 13 and handing it to them. I'm talking about people 14 that have them confiscated because evidently they're 15 trying to sneak it in, even though it's legal. Do we 16 allow them to continue to have their gun after that? 17 CAPTAIN RICHTER: Well, that goes into 18 a question I suppose on the Licensing Division. 19 I have had incidents where attorneys 20 have snuck firearms into court rooms and their 21 licenses have been subsequently revoked. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Their license to 23 practice law or their license to have the gun? I'd 24 take them both. Maybe it would teach them a lesson. 25 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I'm not quite sure 69 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 what disposition was made on their license to 3 practice law. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Thank you. 5 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 6 Council member. I'd also like to welcome my 7 colleague from Queens, Helen Sears, who has been 8 here for a long time actually, and also sits on five 9 other committees, not a member of this Committee but 10 feels so strongly that she graces us with her 11 presence. 12 Again, we're going to be taking a 13 short break. Anyone testifying after the break, 14 please hand in your testimony, we do have most of 15 it. We read it all. Some of it is very long, so 16 please cut it down to about three to five minutes, 17 and after the break, again, we'll be hearing from 18 the State Senator and panels on either side. The 19 break will be about five minutes. Thank you. 20 (Recess taken.) 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I will now call 22 to testify, State Senator Eric Schneiderman. 23 Senator, thank you very much for 24 coming down here and being with us. I know you have 25 a very busy schedule. I also know this is very 70 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 important to you so we appreciate your efforts in 3 this regard. 4 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you very 5 much. I have a somewhat busy schedule but I'm very 6 happy to be here because issues relating to gun 7 safety and gun control are tremendously important to 8 me, and I actually do think that today's hearing. 9 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I'm not sure 10 your mic is on. 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: The button says 12 "mic on." 13 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: You're in the 14 New York City Council, Senator. 15 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Councilman 16 Gentile knows that in the State Senate the chair 17 will just cut your microphone off. They control it 18 from the podium, when they don't like what you're 19 saying, and needless to say, I've had that happen to 20 me many times. 21 No, but I'm happy to be here, and I 22 really wanted to be here, and I've spoken over many 23 years with Council Member Yassky, before he was a 24 Council member and I were working as lawyers, and I 25 spoke to him about this. 71 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 I do think that today's hearing is 3 really an historic event in a very simple way. I 4 think this represents the initiation of a serious 5 campaign by people in New York State and New York 6 City, to do something about the abuses of an 7 extremely profitable industry that seeks to expand 8 its profits through irresponsible sales and 9 marketing practices. 10 I don't think that we can afford the 11 luxury of disjointed efforts, and I'm really here, 12 and I've spoken to several other members of the 13 State Legislature, to offer support and to urge all 14 of you, that we need to work together at the City 15 and State level to accomplish this. 16 The reason we're here very simply is, 17 we're not here because of any confusion about public 18 health issues, Dr. Barondess' testimony, he's coming 19 on now, I think that the record is extraordinarily 20 clear, and I would also respectfully submit we're 21 not here because of any confusion about 22 constitutional issues. I don't think we're really in 23 any areas that tread in any way on the second 24 amendment. 25 We're here because we're at one of 72 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 those points in American history where there is a 3 conflict between an extremely profitable industry 4 and the public interest, and if you look at the 5 history of American tort law, and if you look at the 6 history of the evolution of commerce and the 7 regulation of commerce, you'll see this conflict 8 over and over again. Going back to the railroads who 9 contended that it was outrageous to suggest that 10 they be held responsible when they drove by people's 11 houses and the fire coming off the trains caused 12 those houses to burn down, because how in the world 13 could you possibly impose the burdensome requirement 14 that they filter out flames flying out of 15 locomotives, and through the automobile industry, 16 the chemical industry and the tobacco industry, the 17 conflict is between profit and the public interest 18 and the conflicts are the same, the arguments are 19 the same, and with all due regard to my friends who 20 are here in opposition to gun control and gun safety 21 measures, historically the result is always the 22 same, the public interest ultimately does prevail. 23 But we have a long road to go in this particular 24 issue, and I would respectfully request that today 25 be viewed only as the beginning, that we get the 73 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 evidence that you're accumulating, we get the record 3 for you, we take it up to Albany where we have the 4 opportunity in the coming year I think to change the 5 state law regarding gun liability. And I would like 6 to make reference in particular to one area that is 7 before you, while there are several different 8 resolutions and bills that I support that are here 9 today on the agenda. 10 I would like to focus you on the 11 issue of the code of conduct. The suggestion in the 12 code of conduct, whether imposed through litigation 13 or imposed through legislation is an extremely 14 important vehicle economically, politically and 15 legally for this struggle. 16 The record before us, and, again, 17 Alissa Barnes and others who were involved in the 18 NAACP, the Accusport case are here, the record 19 before us is absolutely crystal clear, and I read 20 now from Judge Weinstein's decision, the evidence 21 presented at trial, an extremely detailed record, is 22 available to anyone who cares to look, demonstrated 23 that the defendants gun industry are responsible for 24 the creation of a public nuisance and could 25 voluntarily and through easily implemented changes 74 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 in marketing and more discriminating control of the 3 sales practices of those to whom they sell their 4 guns, substantially reduced the harm occasioned by 5 the diversion of guns to the illegal market and by 6 the criminal possession and use of those guns. 7 That one sentence tells us everything 8 we need to know about the facts. The facts are 9 clear, the law is murky. 10 I'm here today to let you know that 11 those of us in the State Legislature who are as 12 passionate about this issue as the members of the 13 Council, are prepared, if it is necessary, to make 14 changes in the state law, to parallel or back-up the 15 changes you are seeking to make in the City law. 16 We have legislation that is pending 17 in Albany. It is a tremendous challenge sometimes to 18 get that legislation passed, and we need your help, 19 not just really as far as research, drafting and 20 advocacy goes, we need your help politically to 21 bring this to people's attention, and I hope that in 22 the Year 2004 when our legislative seats are all up 23 and we're all up for reelection that the issue of 24 doing something about the plague of gun violence in 25 our state and in our city will be a significant 75 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 issue in the election, and I hope that I will have 3 the support of everyone here in our effort to make 4 it an issue. 5 I commend you. I commend the chair. 6 As a former "gun toting Deputy Sheriff, not a 7 prosecutor, I commend you for your devotion to this 8 issue, and I do want to say that those of us who 9 actually have used guns, and appreciate, you know, 10 the good and the bad of the use of firearms, I think 11 have a responsibility to see that we proceed forward 12 carefully and in a way that doesn't provide, you 13 should pardon the expression, ammunition to draw 14 enemies to defeat responsible efforts at gun safety 15 and gun control. I thank you all for inviting me 16 here today, and I look forward to using the 17 materials you're developing here in Albany, and I 18 hope that there will be an occasion where we may 19 invite you up before the end of the 2004 legislative 20 session to move on some of these same issues. 21 Thank you very much. 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Well, thank you. 23 I just had a question about the ability of the chair 24 to shut off the microphones of other people. 25 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, Senator 76 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Bruno actually has a manual about that, but I think 3 it's probably available to you. 4 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: We had a private 5 discussion right before you testified and we are 6 passing many resolutions to Albany today. You're 7 here, please help us bring them up. We will be 8 obviously following that up with a letter to you, 9 but to thank you for actually being here. 10 Councilman Yassky would like to say 11 something. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: I simply want 13 to thank the Senator for being here this morning, 14 throughout the entire hearing in fact. 15 Your leadership on this and so many 16 other issues has been of inestimable benefit to my 17 constituents. It's an honor that you chose to attend 18 this hearing today. 19 Thank you very much. 20 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you very 21 much. 22 SPEAKER MILLER: Thank you. We have a 23 small change in the order. We have a witness who 24 would like to testify who we're honored to have here 25 today with us. Ms. Thelma Davis, the mother of James 77 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Davis, would you say some words in honor of Stop The 3 Violence Program founded by her son James Davis, and 4 in whose memory and in whose honor we are having 5 this hearing. 6 Ms. Davis, please come forward. It's 7 a pleasure to have you with us today. 8 MS. DAVIS: Thank you for inviting me. 9 I didn't get a chance to read up on my literature, I 10 just got it. I was going to give a good presentation 11 but now I'll just have to give one from the heart. 12 I represent my son James Davis, you 13 know he was assassinated here, due to an illegal 14 gun, and I'm here to say that I oppose the use of 15 firearms, especially those that are not legally -- 16 I'm trying to find my words. Excuse me. I was 17 sitting back there, I just walked in because I was 18 in the other Chamber and listening to the lead 19 poisoning and I didn't know which one to come in and 20 I just walked in here later after I found that you 21 were in here. So, I was trying to get my notes and 22 everything together. But I do say that I am against 23 the illegal arms, firearms, and I don't know exactly 24 what else to say except that I am against it. I know 25 my son has been against it for years, and it's been 78 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 going for ten years that he's been trying to get 3 illegal arms and violence off the streets of New 4 York, and you know what the results of that was and 5 since he was assassinated here with an illegal arm. 6 So, I'm just here to express myself 7 and to say that I am against it. I have my other son 8 Jeffrey, who I hope to be working along with the 9 folks here, and maybe he can continue on some of the 10 work that my son James is doing, and I thank you 11 very much for inviting me. 12 Do you have any questions? Maybe I 13 can answer a question rather than try to make a 14 speech. 15 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I'm sure we 16 will. Let me just quickly say on behalf of everyone 17 that your son James, his work with regard to taking 18 guns off the street, was just remarkable, and we 19 miss him every day. This Committee misses him more 20 than anyone else. He was, not to put my other 21 members down, but the hardest working member of this 22 Committee. When I had to sit here sometimes to 5:00, 23 6;00, 7:00 at night, he sat with me the entire time. 24 In fact, people came to the hearings just to hear 25 him speak. He was an amazing, amazing presence on 79 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 this Committee, and that's why we're doing this 3 today, and we're not going to just do this today, 4 we're going to remember him in everything we do, 5 because of the fine work he did and what he stood 6 for, and let me say that your being here today to 7 follow up with what he did is very noble and in you 8 and in possibly your son his work will go on. So, 9 thank you for coming down. 10 Council Member Moskowitz. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Yes. Thank 12 you very, very much, Mrs. Davis. I don't know if you 13 remember me, but I was at your home a couple of 14 years ago, once with Gifford Miller. We were there 15 to visit with your son James Davis, and I appreciate 16 your coming. 17 I just also wanted to say that in my 18 view, mothers, and particularly mothers of victims 19 of gun violence, has been one of the strongest 20 advocates, and your leadership, as well as the 21 leadership of others, is incredibly important. 22 Mothers Against Guns and various women's and mothers 23 organizations have been absolutely critical in this 24 fight, and, so, I want to thank you for coming and I 25 want to ask that we continue to work with you. 80 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 There's no one who can speak, unfortunately, more 3 eloquently as if someone who has lost a loved one, 4 so thank you very much. 5 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Council Member 6 Sanders. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Thank you, 8 Mr. Chair. Good to see you again, Mother Davis. How 9 are you? 10 MS. DAVIS: I'm doing very well. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Good. I'm 12 glad of that. I just, of course, want to refer my 13 constituent, Liz Goldsmith, to you. She's created an 14 organization Mothers Against Gun Violence, and I'm 15 sure that you can tie into many, but that is one of 16 the wordy ones, and I just want to continue to say 17 if there's anything I can do, by all means, please 18 just let me know. Good to see you again. 19 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Councilwoman 21 Foster. Don't go anywhere yet, Mrs. Davis. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Hi, Mrs. 23 Davis. How are you? I just want to say that you 24 don't ever have to look for words, the fact that you 25 lived through what you lived through, and that your 81 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 son was assassinated by an illegal gun, says 3 everything that in my opinion needs to be said in 4 terms of gun and gun control, and it's kind of, in 5 some ways I think, at least for me, I'm sitting here 6 in vain because I don't see how someone could sit 7 and justify guns when each and every day from the 8 date your son was assassinated you have to wake up 9 with the reality that your son was murdered by an 10 illegal gun. And I just want to let you know that 11 James was who he was obviously because of a mother 12 as strong as you, and there was no time, especially 13 in this Committee, James started every sentence with 14 "as a former police officer," and we used to laugh 15 because we knew it was coming 16 , so I want you to know that you don't ever have to 17 look for words because you are living testament to 18 what we're trying to do here and may God continue to 19 bless you, because while the days have stretched 20 from his death, it doesn't make it any easier, and I 21 really do keep you and your family in my prayers. 22 MS. DAVIS: Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 24 Council Member Yassky. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Mrs. Davis, I 82 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 just wanted to thank you for coming here. Your 3 leadership and strength and determination has been 4 an inspiration to us all. And I would say whatever 5 progress we're able to make on guns will be not 6 because of James assassination, but because of the 7 strength and determination and commitment that he 8 showed every day before it, and that you and your 9 family have shown since. So, thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I think we're 11 done with our questioning. So, thank you very much. 12 MS. DAVIS: Thank you. 13 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: As was said, if 14 you ever need anything from us, as the entire City 15 Council, you just come let us know. Thank you. 16 MS. DAVIS: I thank you all for your 17 words. Thank you. 18 Now we'll call the next panel 19 consisting of Dr. Jeremiah Barondess, from Doctors 20 Against Handgun Injury; Lisa Barnes and Lucy Allen 21 from NERA Economic Consulting. 22 Let me also welcome Council Member 23 Kendall Stewart, who is the architect of the bill we 24 discussed earlier. Council Member Stewart was at the 25 lead paint hearing. The bill regarding insurance, an 83 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 insurance requirement for the owners of guns, and he 3 has been given all of the testimony regarding that, 4 and will be fully briefed. So thank you for joining 5 us, Kendall, and thank you for your efforts on 6 behalf of stemming the flood of illegal guns in this 7 City, and for the bill you introduced. 8 Again, we do have copies of your 9 testimony, so as much as you could limit it, we 10 would appreciate that, and I believe, Doctor, you 11 will go first. 12 DR. BARONDESS: Thank you very much, 13 Mr. Chairman. I am pleased and honored to be here. 14 I'm Jeremiah Barondess, President of the New York 15 Academy of Medicine, and I appear here before you 16 not only as a physician, but as the head of an 17 important New York institution concerned with and 18 focused on health of urban population. 19 The Academy of Medicine organized and 20 continues to manage an entity called Doctors Against 21 Handgun Injury, which is now three years old, and 22 consists of a consortium of 12 major, the 12 major 23 clinical societies in the United States. 24 The membership of Doctors Against 25 Handgun Injury contains in the aggregate some 84 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 400,000 American physicians, two-thirds of all 3 doctors in this country, the vast majority of whom 4 believe that our ongoing epidemic of death and 5 injury due to firearms is an urgent clinical and 6 public health problem, and I've appended to my 7 testimony that you have a list of the member 8 societies of Doctors Against Handgun Injury. 9 Firearms take the lives of more than 10 28,000 Americans each year, 2,000 of whom are 11 residents of New York State, and in addition, t