1 2 CITY COUNCIL 3 CITY OF NEW YORK 4 -------------------------------x 5 THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES 6 of the 7 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 8 -------------------------------x 9 10 September 12, 2003 Start: 10:30 a.m. 11 Recess: 2:20 p.m. 12 City Hall Council Chambers 13 New York, New York 14 B E F O R E: 15 PETER VALLONE 16 Chairperson, 17 COUNCIL MEMBERS: Philip Reed 18 Eric Dilan Helen Foster 19 Melinda Katz David Yassky 20 Vincent Gentile Eva Moskowitz 21 James Sanders Leroy Comrie 22 Helen Sears Kendall Stewart 23 24 LEGAL-EASE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 17 Battery Place - Suite 1308 25 New York, New York 10004 (800) 756-3410 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 John Feinblatt 4 Criminal Justice Coordinator 5 Thomas M. Prasso Director, License Division 6 New York City Police Department 7 Captain Roy T. Richter Commanding Officer, License Division 8 New York City Police Department 9 Senator Eric Schneiderman 10 Thelma D. Davis 11 Dr. Jeremiah A. Barondess President 12 The New York Academy of Medicine 13 Lucy Allen National Economic Research Association 14 Economic Consulting 15 Lisa Barnes National Economic Research Association 16 Economic Consulting 17 Amy L. Heath Director, Women in the Shooting Sports 18 New York State Rifle and Pistol Association 19 Anthony Imperato Henry Repeating Arms 20 Randall Casseday 21 Kahr Arms 22 Jim Lesczynski SCORE, New York City Chapter 23 Donna Dees Thomases 24 Million Mom March, Washington, D.C. 25 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) 3 Sara Alcoff Million Mom March, Brooklyn 4 Jackie Kuhls 5 Director of Public Policy New Yorkers Against Gun Violence 6 Andy Pelosi 7 New Yorkers Against Gun Violence 8 Anthony Xanthakis 9 Barry Cohen 10 Timothy Furey 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Today we are 3 focusing on a number of bills and resolutions 4 designed to stem the flow of illegal weapons here in 5 New York City. 6 Gun violence unfortunately is a sad 7 fact of life here, despite some of the strictest gun 8 control laws in the nation. This sad and devastating 9 reality was brought home to this very Chamber on 10 July 23rd with the shooting death of Council Member 11 James E. Davis, a member of this Committee and Chair 12 of our Subcommittee on Juvenile Justice. 13 This is our first hearing of this 14 committee since the tragic events of that day, and 15 we thought it was appropriate, but as a substantive 16 policy matter and as a way to honor the work, the 17 commitment and the expertise of Council Member James 18 Davis, to consider and hear testimony regarding 19 bills that touch on various aspects of gun control. 20 There are many items before this 21 Committee today, and I will quickly outline them for 22 you. 23 Intro. 197 creates a cause of action 24 against weapons manufactured who fail to abide by a 25 code of conduct as outlined in the bill. 5 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Intro. 210 imposes a civil penalty on 3 manufacturers of certain weapons illegally used to 4 injure or kill City employees. 5 Intro. 363 requires rifle and shotgun 6 owners to obtain liability insurance. 7 Intro. 454 prohibits the sale of a 8 rifle or shotgun to anyone under 21 years of age, 9 and requires firearms dealers to collect additional 10 information for purchases. 11 Intro. 487 creates a strict liability 12 cause of action against weapons manufacturers. 13 Intro. 536 limits the acquisition of 14 a shutgun to one for a 90-day period. 15 Resolution 584-A urges Congress to 16 authorize the establishment of a national ballistics 17 fingerprint database as articulated in Senate Bill 18 22. 19 Resolution 669-A urges the State 20 Legislature to require that gun owners obtain 21 liability insurance. 22 Resolution 1,000, we're up to 1,000, 23 see, we work pretty hard here at the Council, urges 24 the State Legislature to limit the acquisition of a 25 firearm to one per 90-day period, which is what 6 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 we're doing here on a City level. People should 3 understand, on a City level, we only have control 4 over rifles and shotguns. On a state level, they 5 control handguns. 6 And two resolutions which we're 7 voting on today, and we took testimony at previous 8 hearings, are resolution 288-A, calling on Congress 9 to pass Bill 260, which will close a background 10 check loophole at gun shows by extending the Brady 11 law. The sales at all gun shows. And Resolution 12 289-A, which calls on the State Legislature to 13 further restrict the issuance of a license for a 14 purchase of firearms to include those who have 15 committed a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, 16 or a misdemeanor crime of assaults or any three 17 misdemeanors in a ten-year period. We have done that 18 here on the City level regarding rifles, and now 19 we're calling on the State to do the same regarding 20 handguns. 21 In addition, we'll vote on intro. 22 482-A, for which we took testimony at our last 23 hearing in June to make it an A misdemeanor, to 24 trespass on the playing area of a professional 25 supporting event, and oppose the civil penalty, a 7 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 very high one I may add, $25,000 for the top level 3 crime, for those who interfere with a professional 4 sporting event. And we will be voting on those 5 today. 6 There are many different approaches 7 to stopping illegal guns here in New York City, and 8 they're embodied in these different proposals. We 9 agree on some, we don't agree on others, but they 10 all have one idea in common, to access, access -- to 11 limit access to illegal guns, and prevent 12 unnecessary violence. 13 There will be many different views 14 from the people who testify from the people sitting 15 up here at this table about these proposals, and 16 we'll make amendments to these bills after today. 17 It is our intent to listen to all the 18 testimony from both the policy and legal standpoint 19 to determine what we can do to prevent access to 20 legal guns. 21 One of our themes here today is to 22 call on the State and the federal government to do 23 more in this area. The City is doing all it can, but 24 we need help from the State and Federal government. 25 As we heard in our hearing here in 8 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 June, most guns, over 90 percent, that are used in 3 crime come from out of state, particularly from 4 states with lax gun control laws. That's why two of 5 our resolutions today call on the State and US 6 Congress to take a more active role. 7 Before I call on the NYPD for their 8 testimony, let me introduce my colleagues, and the 9 members of my Committee. 10 To my far left, Council Member Helen 11 Foster. Next to her, Council Member David Yassky, 12 the prime sponsor of many of these bills, and have 13 worked very hard with him and we've worked with our 14 staff members, our Counsel here, Ted Baecher, 15 crafting these bills, and I thank David and Ted for 16 their help. 17 On my far right, another member of 18 the Committee, Council Member Vincent Gentile, and 19 also we have other members joining us who have 20 sponsored some of these bills. Many will be coming 21 in throughout the hearing. Next to Mr. Gentile is 22 Council Member Eva Moskowitz, the prime sponsor of 23 the strict liability bill. Thank you. 24 And on my right is Council Member 25 James Sanders, sponsor of the bill requiring more 9 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 information from people who were trying to purchase 3 ammunition. 4 Thank you, both. 5 Let me first turn to -- because there 6 are some Council members up here who have done an 7 extraordinary amount of work on these bills, I'll 8 allow some short opening statements from some 9 others. So, first I'll call on Council Member Yassky 10 to give a brief opening statement. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Thank you, 12 Chair Vallone. I just want to thank you very, very 13 much for all your hard work, including but not 14 limited to calling this hearing today. Your 15 attention to the problem has been extraordinary. 16 You've shown extraordinary leadership. I think it 17 shows how valuable it is to have someone with the 18 experience and knowledge of a former prosecutor 19 chairing this Committee. So, thank you, again, Chair 20 Vallone. 21 I am not going to lay out the case 22 against the gun industry here in my opening 23 statement because we have testifying later some of 24 the nation's foremost experts on this. We're going 25 to hear from Donna Dethomas, founder of Million Mile 10 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 March, and we're going to hear from Alisa Barnes 3 who, in my view, is a hero. She is a woman who 4 litigated the Hamilton case, the NAACP case against 5 the gun industry, and I think history will show that 6 she was a pioneer who led the way to greater gun 7 safety, and they will lay out all the facts and 8 details. But suffice it to say, that the 9 irresponsible practices of the gun industry caused 10 hundreds, if not thousands, of preventable deaths 11 and shootings in New York City every single year, 12 and the tragedy of it is that the gun industry knows 13 exactly what they need to do to prevent these deaths 14 and injuries and they refuse to do it. 15 New Yorkers are under attack from the 16 firearm industry, and we have not just the right to 17 fight back, but this City on behalf of its citizens 18 has the obligation to fight back on behalf of New 19 Yorkers. 20 The best way that we have to force 21 the gun industry to act responsibly is through the 22 courts. It would be great if we had a Congress that 23 was going to ask, but the truth is we don't and 24 we're not, and until we do, we can't wait for that. 25 We have to act ourselves. 11 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 As you probably know, dozens of 3 cities and states and private individuals have filed 4 lawsuits against the gun industry trying to force 5 the manufacturers to clean up their act and act 6 responsibly. 7 Unfortunately, the courts have been 8 hostile to these lawsuits. I believe that's going to 9 change, but what we've seen is many courts, 10 including the New York State Court of Appeals and 11 the Hamilton case, have found technical reasons to 12 throw out lawsuits, and in fact, in Hamilton in 13 particular, the court said, well, the gun industry 14 may well be a bad act or may well cause deaths, but 15 we need the legislature to give us a standard of 16 liability. That's why Intro. 197 is so important. 17 Intro. 197 sets out a standard of 18 liability that litigants and private citizens can go 19 in and use to defend themselves against the harm 20 caused by the gun industry. 21 Mr. Chair, I thank you again for 22 holding this hearing. I very much look forward to 23 hearing the witnesses. 24 Thank you. 25 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 12 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Council member. I'd like to also welcome State 3 Senator Schneiderman, sitting in the back, who will 4 be testifying later on. 5 Council Member Eva Moskowitz. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, 7 Mr. Chair. 8 I also am not going to lay out the 9 statistics, which many of us know and are clearly 10 horrifying, in terms of the human lives lost and 11 damaged as a result of gun violence, the costs to 12 the City and society and so forth, I just want to 13 begin by saying that it seems to me that we have to 14 admit in the Year 2003, that even with the best law 15 enforcement in the world, and I believe surely in 16 New York City we have that, we are being hopelessly 17 outgunned. 18 My bill, the Gun Industry 19 Accountability Act, will extend strict liability to 20 gun manufacturers, dealers and importers for 21 injuries caused by their products when used to 22 commit crime. This will allow families to seek 23 compensation. 24 Now, strict liability is a concept 25 that is a little counter-intuitive, and it's 13 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 different from products liability because product 3 liability, the product has to be defective, and most 4 people say, well, guns are made to kill or harm in 5 some way. 6 But strict liability actually has a 7 very venerable history. It's not a concept, 8 obviously, invented. And the concept is important. 9 The notion is that a person producing 10 something that is inherently dangerous should be 11 held accountable for the harms that result. It 12 doesn't matter if the person has taken precautions 13 and care in the design of the product if innocent 14 people can be injured by the normal use of the 15 product. 16 That is the concept of strict 17 liability, and I just want to give an example of 18 where this concept applies. 19 Toxic waste is an example of where. 20 It doesn't matter if the manufacturer has taken 21 precautions. If that ends up in a landfill, by 22 accident, by any other means, the manufacturer, the 23 packager, is responsible. 24 Why should gun manufacturers be any 25 different? That, to me, is the starting question 14 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 that we have to ask. 3 If the disposal and manufacture of 4 toxic waste is considered to be a dangerous 5 activity, then surely producing and selling a 6 product designed specifically to kill is one of the 7 most inherently dangerous activities imaginable. 8 The simple fact is that gun 9 manufacturers profit from selling dangerous 10 products, and products that are in fact designed to 11 be dangerous. 12 Despite a recent statement by an NRA 13 spokesman that the gun industry is "cash poor," 14 statistics show that the American gun industry is a 15 billion dollar a year business. These corporations 16 don't just profit from the pain caused by their 17 products, they profit spectacularly from it. Some 18 groups argue that this is very broad, sweeping 19 legislation, and I certainly would have to admit 20 that it's pioneering, but I would hope that we 21 wouldn't reject it because of that. 22 Now, part of the criticisms made 23 against it is that this is a punitive bill, and I 24 just wanted to address that directly, because it's 25 actually the exact opposite. 15 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 This legislation provides incentives, 3 economic incentives for good behavior. The most 4 careful and conscientious companies are, the less 5 they will have to pay. 6 To be sure this bill pioneers a new 7 direction in the gun control movement, but I would 8 maintain that it's necessary because our current 9 efforts have clearly not been successful. 10 In the end this bill is quite simply 11 about accountability. It empowers mothers and 12 families and New Yorkers to tackle a billion dollar 13 industry that is tearing at the very fabric of our 14 neighborhoods. It's about finally taking a fight for 15 our City to the very doorsteps of the special 16 interests that are poisoning our streets. 17 This legislation is a powerful, 18 progressive and unique way to deal with the plague 19 of gun violence in our City. 20 I look forward very much to the 21 testimony from a variety of advocates and experts to 22 see what is the best way to get at a problem that I 23 think everyone at this table certainly, and most New 24 Yorkers, agree solving this problem has alluded us. 25 Thank you very much. 16 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 3 Council Member. 4 Council Member Sanders. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Thank you, 6 Chair Vallone. This is a very timely hearing, both 7 to honor, of course, our falling Council Member 8 Davis, but also to ensure that the City as a whole 9 is a safer place. So, I, too, commend everyone who 10 has done a lot of good work to bring these bills 11 forward. 12 Since the early 18th century, guns 13 and their misuse has troubled society, and this 14 problem is not simply a problem of poor communities. 15 This problem is a problem of the City as a whole, 16 perhaps even the nation. 17 My own district, the 31st, is the 18 third wealthiest in Queens, and the eighth 19 wealthiest in New York City, and even we are 20 troubled and hardpressed by the misuse of guns and 21 the trouble that that brings. 22 Today by passing Intro. 454-A, and 23 these other worthy intros, we can start to have some 24 impact on this problem. 25 The genesis of this Intro, my own, 17 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 was brought to me, of course, by Liz Goldsmith, who 3 is from Mothers Against Gun Violence, and her group, 4 of course, represent those who have been the 5 victims, their children were either slain or 6 seriously hurt by the misuse of guns. 7 Now, by no means should this Intro be 8 seen as an anti-gun legislation. It merely serves to 9 ensure that legal owners of guns are the only 10 purchasers of bullets. You should be legal if you're 11 buying bullets. 12 I personally believe in the 13 sacredness of the Sixth Amendment, so I'm very, very 14 clear that this is a limited move on a problem that 15 seems to be grossly ignored by the federal and state 16 government. But in New York City we must move on 17 this one. 18 So, I, too, look forward to hearing 19 and seeing these proceedings. 20 Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 22 It should be noted that Council 23 Member Sanders is an ex-Marine, and we appreciate 24 your expertise and input here today. I should also 25 divulge, I guess, openly, my own personal belief. I 18 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 was called in one of these daily papers a, I believe 3 "a rifle toting former Prosecutor," which is 4 technically correct, but I don't believe with all 5 the connotations that that phrase would impart, I do 6 own a small rifle. And I do believe, as my colleague 7 does, in the sacredness of the Second Amendment and 8 the right to own that rifle, however, I also believe 9 that society has an obligation to place restrictions 10 on the ownership of these weapons, to ensure that 11 only responsible people have access to these guns, 12 and that they are not diverted to the illegal 13 population or to irresponsible people. So that is my 14 own position. 15 And now I'd like to call on -- I'd 16 also like to welcome Council Member Jeff, and 17 perhaps future Council Member Jeffrey Davis. 18 Thank you for joining us today. And 19 also, my colleague Melinda Katz who has joined us, 20 my colleague from Queens, and Phil Reed. 21 Okay, then let me ask your indulgence 22 for one moment, members of the Police Department, 23 because I do have six members here of the Public 24 Safety Committee. I'm going to take a vote on the 25 members that are before us today. 19 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Jeffrey Davis, you're still here? You 3 should know that before you walked in, myself and 4 the other Council members mentioned that we were 5 having this hearing as quickly as we were to honor 6 your brother, and the great work you've done in this 7 regard. I know that I spoke to him often as 8 Subcommittee Chair of this Committee, regarding the 9 problem with guns, and we all know how hard he 10 worked to prevent violence of all different types in 11 this community. We mentioned that before you came in 12 and we just wanted you to know that, and we 13 appreciate you joining us today. 14 We've also been joined by Council 15 Member Dilan, a member of the Public Safety 16 Committee, and Council Member Reed, also a member of 17 the Public Safety Committee. Thank you both. 18 I can take out the sock puppets now 19 possible and kill some more time. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Mr. Chair, I 21 intend to make a brief statement explaining my vote, 22 perhaps I should do that now. 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I think that's a 24 very good idea, Council member. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: I wanted to 20 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 thank you for bringing these resolutions to a vote 3 today, and I particularly wanted to speak to the gun 4 show loophole, the resolution that calls on Congress 5 to close the gun show loophole. 6 When Congress passed the Brady Law in 7 1993, that had a very dramatic and immediate impact 8 on a criminal's ability to purchase guns from gun 9 dealers. In the ten, I guess it is, my goodness, ten 10 years since that law was passed, gun shows have 11 emerged as a major loophole, so criminals who are 12 prevented by Brady from going to recognized gun 13 outlets, go to gun shows, and study after study has 14 shown this. 15 Senators McCain and Lieberman, this 16 is not a democratic sort of bill, Senators John 17 McCain and Joseph Lieberman have introduced 18 legislation in the Senate and in House to close the 19 gun show loophole. It has been held up by the 20 Republican leadership in Congress, and it's 21 unconscionable because every day they wait, somebody 22 else is buying a gun at a gun show and then using it 23 in a crime. And, so, I commend you for bringing this 24 resolution to a vote. And I hope that it has the 25 effect that it ought to have on Congress. 21 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 4 Council Member. 5 Would anyone else like to be heard on 6 any of the measures we're voting on today, either 7 the closing of the Brady Bill loophole, the running 8 onto the sports fields, or calling on New York State 9 to do what we did here in New York City, to allow 10 access to a gun -- not allow access to a gun, if 11 anyone is convicted of domestic violence, any 12 assaults, or any three misdemeanors in a ten-year 13 period. 14 Council Member Reed. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Thank you, Mr. 16 Chair. 17 I also want to commend you for 18 bringing all of this forward. I know we have a lot 19 of testimony on other bills, but I just want to go 20 on record to say that it's insane for any civilized 21 city or society, as we see all of the havocs that's 22 going on, continue to acquiesce to lobbies that say 23 that this is the constitution, that they're 24 defending. I think that there's an agenda beyond 25 that. And I'm also pleased to see Dr. Barondess from 22 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 the New York Academy of Medicine here. I know that 3 he has been a leader in the fight as identifying gun 4 violence as a health problem here in America. I 5 think that's how we have to see it. So, I'm pleased 6 to have an opportunity to vote on these. Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 8 Council member. And now I believe we're ready to 9 call the vote. In the interest of saving time, and 10 because I don't believe there's any dissention up 11 here on these matters, we'll take votes on all three 12 at the same time. So, if you would like to vote no 13 on any of them, please specify that. 14 I would like to call the vote now. 15 COUNCIL CLERK: Vallone. 16 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: As sponsor of 17 all three of these measures, I proudly vote yes. As 18 one of the sponsors. 19 COUNCIL CLERK: Reed. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Aye on all. 21 COUNCIL CLERK: Dilan. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER DILAN: Aye on all. 23 COUNCIL CLERK: Foster. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Aye on all. 25 COUNCIL CLERK: Katz. 23 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 COUNCIL MEMBER KATZ: Aye on all. 3 COUNCIL CLERK: Yassky. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Aye on all. 5 COUNCIL CLERK: Gentile. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Chairman, I 7 vote aye on all. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, all. 9 And we'll keep that vote open for the remaining 10 members, some of whom are next door. 11 Okay, now I'd like to welcome our 12 first panel which consists of Criminal Justice 13 Coordinator John Feinblatt, and to members of the 14 Licensing Division, Captain Roy Richter and Thomas 15 Prasso. I believe the Criminal Justice Coordinator 16 will go first. 17 Thank you. 18 MR. FEINBLATT: Good morning, Mr. 19 Chairman, members of the Public Safety Committee, 20 and other members of the Council. My name is John 21 Feinblatt, and I am the Criminal Justice Coordinator 22 for the City of New York. I have been asked to 23 appear before the Council today to give testimony 24 regarding several items of proposed legislation all 25 concerning gun control. 24 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 I can say without exaggeration that 3 there is no more important public safety issue for 4 this City and for this Administration than the 5 possession, the sale and the use of firearms, and I 6 thank you for the opportunity to be heard on this 7 critical subject. 8 Let me begin by making one thing 9 crystal clear. The Bloomberg Administration is 100 10 percent committing to doing whatever it takes to 11 eradicate the scourge of gun violence from our City. 12 Despite remarkable decreases in the 13 number of shootings, down 70 percent over the last 14 ten years, the cold, hard fact is that innocent 15 people are still injured or killed as a result of 16 gun crime. 17 No matter how low the crime rate 18 falls, if even one missing person is victimized by 19 gun violence, that is still one too many. 20 Until the day that all New Yorkers 21 are safe from guns, we cannot be satisfied and we 22 must continue to do everything in our power to rid 23 them from our streets. 24 That is the police of the Bloomberg 25 Administration, and I know the Council is aware that 25 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 it goes well beyond mere words. It is a policy that 3 has translated into bold and aggressive action on 4 multiple fronts. 5 Perhaps the most visible example is 6 the way we have sharpened and intensified our street 7 level enforcement. 8 In January of this year, the New York 9 City Police Department launched a highly data driven 10 and a highly effective initiative called Operation 11 Impact. 12 By flooding a small number of impact 13 zones where crime is most concentrated with hundreds 14 of police officers, the Police Department has 15 achieved dramatic reduction in virtually every crime 16 category, but the result has been most particularly 17 impressive when it comes to guns and to gun 18 violence. 19 So far this year homicides have 20 fallen 38 percent in the impact zones and shooting 21 incidents have declined 34 percent. These results 22 speak for themselves. 23 The Cash for Guns Program has also 24 proven to be an effective tool for getting guns off 25 of our streets and out of the hands of people who 26 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 have absolutely no right to carry them. 3 Since its inception in May of 2002, 4 cash for guns has resulted in the surrender of over 5 2,400 guns, including 1,200 revolvers, more than 750 6 pistols, 145 sawed off shotguns and 58 assault 7 weapons. That's more than 2,400 guns that never will 8 be turned on another human being, a bargain at any 9 price. 10 In addition to enhancing our street 11 level enforcement, we have made efforts to improve 12 court dispositions for defendants who are charged 13 with possessing illegal guns. Launched in late April 14 of this year, the Brooklyn Gun Court is dedicated 15 exclusively to adjudicating felony gun possession 16 cases from five precincts in Brooklyn that suffer 17 from a disproportionate amount of gun violence. 18 Remarkably these precincts account 19 for half of the shootings in the borough and 25 20 percent of all shootings in the entire City. 21 The goal of this initiative is 22 simple, ensure that people who carry illegal guns go 23 to jail before they shoot someone else. 24 Since its inception in late April, 25 the Brooklyn Gun Court has yielded some promising 27 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 early returns. So far, 96 percent of the cases have 3 resulted in some form of incarceration, up 22 4 percent from the prior going rate in Brooklyn, and 5 the length of state prison sentences have increased 6 by 40 percent. 7 The bottom line is that more gun 8 felons are going to jail and they are going to jail 9 for longer. 10 We have turned up the heat on 11 criminals who possess and use firearms, but they are 12 not our only targets. We have also gone after gun 13 manufacturers. 14 As I know you are aware, the City has 15 brought a lawsuit against more than 30 firearm 16 manufacturers seeking money damages, as well as 17 injunctive relief. The non-monetary relief we seek 18 would force gun manufacturers to adopt responsible 19 practices designed to minimize the risk that their 20 weapons will find their way into the illegal 21 firearms market. 22 Our lawsuit is currently pending in 23 federal court and we intend to continue prosecuting 24 it aggressively. 25 Along similar lines, Mayor Bloomberg 28 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 has recently gone on record in opposition to a bill 3 pending before the United States Senate that would 4 effectively immunize gun manufacturers from civil 5 liability. 6 If passed, this bill would make the 7 gun industry the first industry in this country to 8 be legally exempt from its own negligent conduct. 9 It is the ultimate special interest 10 litigation and Mayor Bloomberg is actively lobbying 11 against it. 12 In fact, just today Mayor Bloomberg, 13 Mayor Daily of Chicago, and Mayor Hahn of Los 14 Angeles, have signed the letter urging members of 15 the Senate to defeat this destructive bill and I 16 would ask that this letter be distributed at this 17 time to members of the Council. 18 This Administration's aggressive 19 record on guns could not be clearer. We share the 20 Council's deep concern about gun violence, the 21 concern rendered even more urgent by the recent 22 tragedy that took the life of Council Member James 23 Davis. 24 For instance, we share your support 25 for the federal Blast Act, which creates a 29 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 nationwide ballistic fingerprint database, and we 3 share your support for extending the Brady law 4 background checks to gun shows, but at the same 5 time, we recognize, as I know the Council does, that 6 these are difficult legal and practical waters to 7 navigate, and in that spirit, I will discuss four of 8 the bills that the Council is considering. 9 Introduction No. 210, Introduction 10 No. 197, number 363 and number 487. 11 Let me begin with Introductions 210 12 and 197. At the outset, I can say without 13 reservation that this Administration shares the 14 sentiment underlying these bills. 15 In fact, it is fair to say that they 16 seek to accomplish through different means precisely 17 the same goals as the City's lawsuit and that is to 18 force gun manufacturers to behave responsibly. 19 The injunctive relief that the City 20 is demanding in its own lawsuit effectively seeks a 21 mandatory code of conduct for gun manufacturers. 22 Such a code of conduct could well contain many of 23 the same elements proposed in 210 and 197. But 24 because of this similarity and dependency of the 25 lawsuit, I am restrained from commenting publicly on 30 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 these bills. 3 In the interest of avoiding any 4 action that might jeopardize the City's lawsuit, a 5 sentiment that I know that the Council shares, I 6 most respectively decline to comment specifically on 7 the legislation. 8 Introductions 363 and 487 do not 9 intersect as closely with the subject matter of our 10 litigation, so I am not similarly restrained from 11 commenting. 12 Introduction 363 makes the issuance 13 of a rifle or shotgun license contingent upon the 14 applicants having a liability insurance in the 15 amount of at least $250,000. 16 While we agree with the bill's stated 17 purpose requiring gun owners to bear their fair 18 share of the cost inherent in gun ownership, we do 19 believe that there are practical problems with this 20 legislation. 21 The insurance required by 363 must 22 cover "any harm or damage that might arise out of 23 the use" of a rifle or shotgun, including unlawful 24 use. 25 While I do not pretend by any means 31 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 to be an expert on insurance coverage, I have been 3 advised by those who are, that personal liability 4 policies contain a standard exclusion for criminal 5 conduct. 6 So, to borrow the Council's 7 automobile insurance analogy, it is true that a 8 personal liability policy would cover a driver if he 9 injured someone in a car accident, but it would 10 never cover him if he intentionally ran over a 11 pedestrian. 12 Likewise, we are not aware of any 13 insurance policy that would cover a rifle owner if 14 he intentionally shot someone, or even if his rifle 15 were stolen and then used to shoot someone. 16 Turning now to 487. We once again 17 support the principle of creating strong incentives 18 for gun manufacturers to behave responsibly. 19 However, we have concerns that this 20 particular bill cast too wide an end. 21 Introduction 487 creates a private 22 cause of action that holds gun manufacturers and 23 dealers strictly liable for injury or death caused 24 by their weapons within the boundaries of New York 25 City. This could result in unintended consequences. 32 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 For instance, if a police officer's 3 service weapon were stolen and then used to shoot 4 someone, the manufacturer of that gun could be held 5 strictly liable for money damages. The same result 6 would follow if a legally-owned gun were stolen from 7 a civilian and used to commit a murder. One other 8 example. 9 If someone commits suicide with a 10 legally purchased and licensed firearm, the 11 manufacturer of that firearm could be held strictly 12 liable for that person's estate. 13 As a practical matter, the threat of 14 unlimited liability without fault will effectively 15 prevent gun manufacturers from selling weapons to 16 anyone in New York City, including the Police 17 Department. 18 So, while we agree with the spirit of 19 487, we also believe that it is overbroad. As I said 20 at the outset, there is no more serious public 21 safety issue for New Yorkers than guns. It is a 22 complex, multi-faceted problem with stakes that 23 could not be higher. 24 And, so, when considering solutions, 25 nothing, nothing whatsoever should be off the table. 33 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 As the City's Criminal Justice 3 Coordinator, I would like to take this opportunity 4 to suggest an area in which improvements would have 5 the most profound impact on the safety of our 6 residents and visitors, the area of gun crime. 7 If I may, let me give you a bit of 8 history. In 1980, the New York State Legislature 9 passed a law that imposed a mandatory minimum 10 one-year jail sentence for defendants convicted of 11 felony gun possession. 12 At the time it was hailed as a get 13 tough measure for illegal guns and a clear measure 14 to gun criminals that the revolving door that they 15 had been spinning through for years was about to 16 slam shut. 17 But while the new penal law statute 18 certainly read tough, it also contained a loophole, 19 and I have to tell you, it was a loophole that you 20 could drive a MAC truck through. 21 It allowed judges to disregard the 22 mandatory minimum that they found the one-year 23 sentence to be unduly harsh, and if they felt the 24 alternative sentence would be consistent with the 25 public safety. 34 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 To put it another way, judges were 3 granted the discretion to disregard the one-year 4 minimum at will. 5 Some 20 years later the exception has 6 swallowed the rule. In fact, a one-year sentence is 7 the exception in this case. 8 Listening to the numbers. In 2001, 9 the most recent year for which full sentence data is 10 available, 26 percent of all defendants convicted of 11 possessing loaded illegal handguns received no jail 12 time whatsoever. And how many of those who got 13 convicted received the mandatory one-year sentence? 14 I'm afraid that I have to report that less than half 15 got sentenced to a full year in jail, the minimum 16 that this new law guaranteed in all but the most 17 exceptional cases. 18 The bottom line is that the mandatory 19 minimum law is rhetoric. The vast majority of the 20 guns that cause damage to life and to limb in this 21 City are possessed illegally. And the cold hard fact 22 is that criminals who carry them are getting slapped 23 on the wrist, even defendants with recent and 24 chronic records. Every time that a gun felon passes 25 through this revolving door on his way back to the 35 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 street we are sending a dangerous message. We are 3 saying that there will be little or no consequence 4 for possessing illegal handguns in this City, and we 5 are giving criminals very little incentive to stop. 6 Needless to say, that is the wrong message. 7 While action must certainly be taken 8 by the State Legislature to close the loopholes in 9 the current law, swift action must also be taken by 10 the judiciary to change sentencing practices, 11 because it is the judiciary in large part who 12 transformed this exception into business as usual. 13 To be perfectly blunt, many judges in this City take 14 advantage of the discretion that Albany has given 15 them. It is an inescapable fact the law needs to 16 change, as does the mindset of those entrusted with 17 carrying it out. Simply put, public safety depends 18 on it. 19 Like the City, the Council has 20 correctly identified the need to send a strong 21 message to gun manufacturers and this Administration 22 applauds you for it. 23 It is right, and it is smart to take 24 action against those who reside beyond our borders 25 profit from products that cause harm to the people 36 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 of this City. 3 But in doing so, let us not ignore 4 the fact that there is even a bigger problem in our 5 own back yard, and that problem is the state gun 6 laws and the judges who apply them. 7 Let us not forget that it is just 8 important to send an equally strong message to the 9 criminals who carry guns illegally, gun crime 10 requires both a gun and a criminal, and if we're 11 going to eradicate it, we need to work on both sides 12 of this equation and if we are serious about making 13 a difference, then we all need to work together on 14 it. 15 We would welcome the opportunity to 16 collaborate with the Council as we have in the past 17 to develop gun legislation that will survive legal 18 challenge, allow the police to do their job, and 19 keep all New Yorkers safe from gun violence. 20 Thank you very much, and I will now 21 ask my colleagues in the Police Department to 22 comment on two other parts of the legislative 23 package. 24 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Before you do, I 25 would like to recognize we've been joined by Council 37 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Member Comrie, my colleague from Queens, who is not 3 a member of this Committee but who feels so 4 importantly about these items that he's here today. 5 Let me just also mention, you spoke 6 about the loophole that exists, and I'd like to 7 introduce some even more sobering facts. 8 I'm a former prosecutor here from 9 Manhattan, six years, prosecuted many gun cases, and 10 when you said 50 percent of the people get one year 11 in jail, I was astounded, because I've never, I 12 shouldn't say never, but almost never seen someone 13 get the one year in jail. The 50 percent I'm 14 assuming includes the fact that many people who have 15 a gun are committing another crime, and they usually 16 get sentenced to that one year concurrently with a 17 sentence for some other crime. Someone who just has 18 a gun and is arrested, I would seriously doubt that 19 50 percent of them go to jail. So, you're absolutely 20 right, there is a huge loophole here in the law, and 21 at the next Council meeting I will be introducing a 22 resolution, based on your recommendation, to tighten 23 up that loophole a little bit. 24 So, thank you, and continue. 25 MR. PRASSO: Good morning, Mr. 38 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Chairman, and members of the Council. I am Thomas 3 Prasso, Director of the License Division of the New 4 York City Police Department, and I'm pleased to be 5 here today on behalf of Police Commissioner Raymond 6 W. Kelly to discuss two of the bills before you, 7 Intro. Nos 454 and 536. 8 Before specifically addressing the 9 bills, please allow me to present a brief overview 10 of the mission of the License Division. 11 Our mission is to ensure that the 12 requirements set forth in local, state and federal 13 law are uniformly applied to the process of 14 licensing handguns, rifles and shotguns and 15 designating special patrolmen in a courteous, 16 expeditious and professional manner. 17 In order to accomplish that mission, 18 the License Division employs a number of civilian 19 and uniformed investigators who review handgun 20 license and rifle, shotgun permit applications, to 21 determine if the person applying meets the 22 requirements enumerated in our local laws and rules, 23 the New York State penal law and the applicable 24 federal statutes. 25 In addition to processing new 39 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 applications, the License Division also tracks the 3 status of existing licenses and processes renewal 4 applications as those licenses expire. 5 The License Division also monitors 6 compliance with the rules governing licenses and 7 permits as set forth in Title 38 of the rules of the 8 City of New York, in order to ensure that those 9 rules are followed. To this end, the License 10 Division maintains a team of investigators who 11 follow-up on incidents involving licensees or permit 12 holders to determine their fitness to continue 13 firearms privileges. Rule violations may result in 14 suspension or permanent revocation of the license or 15 permit. 16 Now I would like to focus on the 17 bills before you. Intro. 454 would conform the 18 Administrative Code of the City Charter, to the City 19 Charter, in raising the minimum age to obtain a 20 rifle shotgun permit to 21. 21 However, this suggested that the 22 Council might wish to consider other conforming 23 amendments, either to the Administrative Code or the 24 Charter, such as the exemptions contained in Charter 25 Section 465, which differs slightly from the 40 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 exemptions contained in Administrative Code Section 3 10-305. 4 The bill would also require dealers 5 who sell ammunition to make a record of identifying 6 information for rifles or shotguns which the 7 ammunition is purchased. The Police Department 8 supports this concept in requiring a higher level of 9 information to be recorded by dealers selling 10 ammunition to rifle shotgun permitees. 11 We also support the amendment to 12 subdivision E of section 10-306 requiring the 13 information to be made available to state and local 14 law enforcement agencies. 15 Intro. 536 would prevent a gun dealer 16 from selling more than one rifle or shotgun per 17 transaction, and from selling a rifle or a shotgun 18 to a person if the dealer knows or should know that 19 the person has purchased the weapon in the last 90 20 days. 21 While the intent of the bill is 22 understandable, the Council may wish to consider two 23 issues relevant to enacting the bill. 24 First, we note that most crime 25 committed by the use of guns do not involve people 41 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 who have rifle shotgun permits. 3 Second, with respect to budget 4 implications, should the bill be enacted, it is 5 estimated that the License Division would be 6 required to hire up to four additional police 7 administrative aids at a cost of over $150,000 per 8 year to respond to inquiries by dealers seeking 9 information regarding whether and when respective 10 purchases last acquired a handgun, rifle or shotgun. 11 It should also be noted that there is 12 no stated penalty for violating the prohibitions 13 contained in the bill, and the bill does not contain 14 an exception for purchases by police officers, peace 15 officers or law enforcement agencies. 16 Thank you for the opportunity to 17 speak with you today, and I am available to answer 18 any questions you may have. 19 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 20 Are there any other statements? 21 Can you just identify yourself for 22 the record. 23 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I'm Captain Roy 24 Richter, the Commanding Officer of the License 25 Division. 42 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 3 Captain, for coming down. 4 Let me just start for simplicity 5 sake, for what you just testified to, Mr. Prasso. 6 Thank you for your support of Council 7 Member Sanders' bill, which would require gun 8 dealers to actually record the information regarding 9 the ammunition that they're selling. 10 Right now they do have to actually 11 see a certificate registration for the weapon when 12 they're selling this ammunition, but they don't have 13 to record it, so no one knows if they actually see 14 it. And I'm co-sponsoring Council Member Sanders' 15 bill, I think it's a great idea and we're proud to 16 have your support, and we will make the changes. 17 On the rifle bill, every 90 days, is 18 mine. I agree with you, it's not legal rifles that 19 are used in crimes here in New York City for the 20 most part, and, unfortunately, as I said before, we 21 don't have control over the handguns. We are, 22 though, calling on Albany to do the same for 23 handguns, one every 90-day period. I cannot think of 24 any reason that a law-abiding person would need more 25 than one handgun every 90-day period. So, once we 43 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 hopefully convince Albany to do that, then I think 3 the $150,000 spent to hire some new people will be 4 well spent. But thank you for that. 5 Commissioner Feinblatt, let me first 6 commend all of you for the work that's been done and 7 that you testified to by the City already, the Cash 8 for Guns Program, Operation Impact especially, the 9 Brooklyn Gun Court, your lawsuit, which I know will 10 be addressed down the road, and Mayor Bloomberg's 11 letter today, very well timed, regarding the federal 12 lawsuits, or federal bill, to hold gun manufacturers 13 immune. 14 I support the Mayor's effort, as I 15 assume most members, if not all, here do, and I will 16 be hopefully adding our support, this Committee's 17 and this Council's support to the Mayor's efforts in 18 that regard. 19 You testified about both bills here 20 today regarding strict liability, and let me just, 21 for those of you who are confused, there are two 22 bills here today regarding strict liability for gun 23 manufacturers. One would hold gun manufacturers 24 liable, if they failed to adhere to a code of 25 conduct. The other would hold gun manufacturers 44 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 liable regardless of their practices for any injury 3 caused by that gun. So, that is the difference. 4 There are two separate bills we are looking at 5 today, and I believe from your testimony you 6 supported the code of conduct, or at least look 7 favorably on it, and thought the strict liability 8 bill was too broad. 9 I happen to personally agree with you 10 in that regard, and as you do applaud the intent 11 behind the broader strict liability bill, I believe 12 that it will be counter-productive, especially in 13 light of the letter the Mayor just sent regarding 14 the immunity from prosecutions bill. Some people may 15 not realize that right now in Washington this bill 16 exists, and it's only about five votes short of 17 passing, a bill that will immunize gun manufacturers 18 from liability, even if they are negligent, even if 19 they're found to be selling guns to criminals. 20 So, many gun advocates will come here 21 today, and I've already counteracted this Committee 22 to not support this strict liability bill because 23 they believe it might work against the immunization 24 effort in Washington. So, again, while it is well 25 intended, it might have the opposite affect, and I 45 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 also happen to disagree with the concept behind 3 strict liability for gun owners. It will do more 4 than just prevent gun manufacturers from selling 5 here in New York City, it will most likely drive 6 them out of business, which may not be the intent of 7 the bill but will be the practical result of the 8 bill, and that would run afoul of our second 9 amendment right to own these weapons. 10 So, I am going to go for questions 11 first to the sponsor of the liability bill which 12 does include a code of conduct, a member of this 13 Committee, Council Member Yassky. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Thank you, 15 Chair Vallone. And Mr. Feinblatt, let me also 16 commend you and the Mayor for getting involved in 17 the fight against the immunity bill. 18 I believe that the bills we are 19 considering here today force the gun industry to 20 adopt a code of responsible conduct, I believe that 21 bill is of historic significance and I believe it 22 will do an enormous amount of good once it's passed. 23 But all of that will be for naught, if the National 24 Rifle Association succeeds in its scurrilous efforts 25 to immunize the gun industry from liability, and I 46 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 believe the NRA should be ashamed of itself for 3 this. They are seeking an immunity that no other 4 industry has, that not cars, not households, 5 ordinary household products, if they're made poorly 6 they're liable to suit, and, yet, guns, the most 7 dangerous of all consumer products, the NRA is 8 seeking legislation to protect them from liability, 9 I find that just an astonishing amount of uberous. 10 I have just one question for you, and 11 as the sponsor of Intro. 197 I appreciate your 12 comment that that bill has precisely the same goal 13 as the City's lawsuit, and I respect that you don't 14 want to comment in any way that would then affect 15 your either litigation or your settlement 16 negotiation, but let me just ask you this question 17 and if you can answer it. 18 The purpose of 197 is to force the 19 gun industry to stop multiple sales, don't sell ten 20 to 15 guns at one time to one individual; to stop 21 selling to kitchen table dealers, people who sell 22 guns out of their home or out of their car and don't 23 have a store front where they can be monitored and 24 the law enforcement folks can do their job; to train 25 their employees to spot the straw purchasers that 47 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 are the critical link in the illegal supply chain 3 and most important of all, to shut down that handful 4 of bad apple dealers who supply half of the crime 5 guns in this country. The gun industry knows who 6 those folks are, and they have every ability to 7 police themselves and to put those folks out of 8 business. And my question to you is, if we 9 accomplish this, if we did force the gun issue to 10 adopt this code of conduct, do you believe that 11 hundreds of shootings would be prevented by doing 12 that? 13 MR. FEINBLATT: I think that clearly 14 there are experts in this field that believe that if 15 we were to force the gun manufacturers to adopt the 16 code of conduct, that it would clearly have a 17 measurable impact on the flow of guns into illegal 18 hands. And, so, it is something that we feel 19 strongly about. 20 I will also repeat that there are two 21 sides to this equation. We have to focus on the gun 22 manufacturers and we also have to focus on the 23 criminals, and the Bloomberg Administration believes 24 that if we focus in both of those areas we can have 25 a demonstrable impact on gun violence. 48 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Thank you. I 3 won't ask a further question, but let me say, you 4 know, of course that's correct, I 100 percent 5 support mandatory tough sentences for illegal gun 6 dealers, and you know that when you look at it, you 7 see that illegal gun traffickers serve about half 8 the time as illegal drug traffickers. To me that's 9 just absolutely the wrong ratio. The gun traffickers 10 are doing far more damage, and, yes, of course you 11 need tough sentencing. 12 But I want to say to the gun industry 13 that if you put your -- if I put a loaded gun, if I 14 put a loaded gun out on my front stoop, and then I 15 turn my back and I don't look to see who is going to 16 pick it up, if that gun shoots somebody, I'm at 17 fault. And what the gun industry does is no 18 different, it's just a little less obvious. And, of 19 course the shooter is responsible, but so too is the 20 industry that put the gun in the shooter's hands for 21 profit. Thank you. 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 23 Council Member. 24 I now would like to go to the sponsor 25 of the strict liability bill, who has done an 49 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 amazing amount of work with regard to our efforts 3 today, Council Member Moskowitz. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you 5 very much, Mr. Chair. 6 I also want to say that the work that 7 our law enforcement community has done in New York 8 City is quite remarkable, and for me the reason to 9 have a bill like 487 is simply because you are 10 out-gunned. Even if you were doing the best job in 11 the world, you just are at the mercy of an industry. 12 But I wanted to focus my questions on 13 Mr. Feinblatt, your testimony specifically about 14 Intro. 487. 15 You say that as a practical matter 16 the threat of unlimited liability without fault will 17 effectively prevent gun manufacturers from selling 18 weapons. Those are strong words, and I'm wondering 19 if that has happened to your knowledge for any other 20 product or service where strict liability is 21 imposed. 22 In other words, you're making a very 23 strong claim that this is going to put manufacturers 24 out of business, as far as I know there is still a 25 big toxic waste business and strict liability has 50 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 not put that out of business, and I was wondering 3 why you think it will happen in the gun industry, 4 even though it hasn't happened in other industries. 5 MR. FEINBLATT: You know as well as I 6 do that strict liability is an extremely powerful 7 tool and an extremely sometimes imprecise tool, and 8 that's what I'm pointing out here and I think that 9 while there is an attractiveness about strict 10 liability, we all at the end of the day have to 11 realize that it can sometimes have unintended 12 consequences. And that is the point -- 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: But you've 14 made a very precise claim, and I'm just wondering if 15 you have any evidence for that claim? 16 In other words, you are saying here 17 that this will effectively prevent gun manufacturers 18 from selling weapons. 19 MR. FEINBLATT: I think it is highly 20 likely. None of us have a crystal ball. You don't 21 have a crystal ball, I don't have a crystal ball, 22 but it is highly likely that this will stop the sale 23 of guns in the City, and that is something that one 24 has to always ask that question, will you legislate 25 more broadly than you intend to in the strict 51 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 liability arena. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: You have no 4 specific evidence -- 5 MR. FEINBLATT: Councilman, you don't 6 have a crystal ball, I don't have a crystal ball. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Well, we 8 don't have a crystal ball but what we do have is 9 other examples of industries where it hasn't 10 happened, and it's a very strong statement and it's 11 likely to seem to be persuasive. I'm sure this will 12 appear in an NRA pamphlet, that Mr. Feinblatt of the 13 New York City Criminal Justice Coordinator says, 14 that as a practical matter this will effectively 15 prevent gun manufacturers from selling weapons, and 16 since it is a strong statement, and I don't think 17 that there is -- it's not a question of crystal 18 ball, I don't think there is a shred of evidence for 19 that, and in fact, on the other side of the 20 equation, there is ample evidence that strict 21 liability has not put industries out of business. 22 Let me just move on to -- 23 MR. FEINBLATT: One distinction we 24 have to make, though, when you look at this, and I 25 am not an expert in the area of toxic waste, toxic 52 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 waste is different than guns. Toxic waste is by its 3 very nature evil. Guns used by the New York Police 4 Department are not. And there is a distinction that 5 we must make in that area. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: So the 7 public and everyone is clear, that 487 has an 8 exemption for a law enforcement working in the 9 normal course of their activity, just so there's no 10 misunderstanding. 11 Thank you. 12 Let me just ask, it wasn't clear to 13 me what the position of the New York City Police 14 Department is on 487; is there a position? 15 MR. FEINBLATT: I think I'm speaking 16 for the City. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Oh, I see, 18 okay. 19 MR. FEINBLATT: Okay. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Let me ask 21 one other question. As I think was mentioned, or 22 perhaps people have heard about, there is clearly 23 some reservation on the part of the gun control 24 advocates for this pioneering bill that is mine, the 25 gun accountability act of 2003. Some of it was 53 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 referenced by my colleague David Yassky, there's a 3 tactical difference about what is going to happen in 4 Washington, some of it substantive. 5 One of the objections, and I wanted 6 to kind of get your views, struck me as very odd, 7 the American Gun Safety in its testimony, Americans 8 for Gun Safety, has three examples where they 9 believe that my bill would be problematic, and one 10 is a local Police Department sells used handguns to 11 a firearms dealer, which is then sold to a straw 12 buyer. The straw buyer in this context -- sold to a 13 straw buyer. 14 Now, I guess I have one factual 15 question, does our New York City Police Department 16 sell guns? 17 CAPTAIN RICHTER: No. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: No. So, 19 just to be totally clear on that, the New York City 20 Police Department does not ever sell guns that it 21 confiscates? 22 CAPTAIN RICHTER: That's correct. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: And why 24 don't you, as opposed to apparently other local 25 Police Departments? 54 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CAPTAIN RICHTER: It's a policy 3 decision. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: I know, but 5 what's the reason for the policy decision? 6 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I couldn't comment 7 on that right now. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Okay, I'll 9 comment. It's a really bad idea. Having the Police 10 Department selling guns. I mean, talk about an 11 oxymoron that is quite remarkable. I just find it 12 odd that this would somehow be a reason not to 13 embrace a strict liability. It is controversial, 14 it's pioneering, it requires legally thinking 15 through implications. I don't think it's an open and 16 shut case, but I think it's certainly worthy of 17 consideration, and I would hate to think that the 18 selling of guns by local Police Departments is any 19 kind of reason not to support strict liability. 20 Thank you very much. 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 22 Council member. 23 Let me also say, since I was on the 24 record as saying that this would put the gun 25 business out of business. I mean, I'm a former 55 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 attorney, there is no other product, except perhaps 3 toxic waste, and I haven't done the research on that 4 and that's not a product, it's a by-product, where a 5 product is legally manufactured and possessed, and 6 where strict liability rises with no showing of 7 negligence. I cannot think of one other product that 8 this would relate to, and therefore that's why you 9 can't point at the statistics you're looking for, 10 where you can show another industry this has 11 happened to. 12 If you have one, I'm happy to hear 13 about it, and I'll look into it, but I don't know of 14 any other product where strict liability exists 15 without any showing of negligence. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: If I may, 17 Mr. Chair, just make a brief comment? 18 Strict liability is a pioneering 19 concept. There aren't a whole lot of products, but 20 there are some. Explosives. Another example where 21 there is a concept of strict liability. But you're 22 right, we don't have enough of these. The toxic 23 waste industry is a relatively new industry, and 24 there's an open-ended question. I just would ask 25 that we keep our minds open, particularly because 56 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 we're not succeeding with traditional methods. 3 Thank you very much. 4 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 5 You're right, explosives, the strict liability 6 regarding the use of explosives. If you injure 7 someone you're assumed to be negligent, not the 8 manufacturer. But as you said, thinking out of the 9 box, I appreciate that. 10 Council Member Sanders. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Thank you, 12 Mr. Chair. 13 I also want to chime in to Mr. 14 Feinblatt about a hasty statement a little earlier, 15 you mentioned a little earlier, about toxic waste, 16 and I'm sure it was in the course of conversation, 17 where outside of the military, some parts of the 18 military no one manufactures toxic waste for the 19 purpose of it being toxic. They're doing it as a 20 by-product of something else, and even inside the 21 military wouldn't be considered toxic waste, it will 22 be something else. 23 I did see Ms. Goldsmith in here a 24 moment or two ago, I'm not sure. She is in here. I 25 want to commend her as an example of what government 57 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 should be, where my bill is actually her bill, she's 3 the true author where a constituent, an average 4 citizen came to an elected official and saw a 5 problem and managed to get it to this level, and I 6 encourage all New Yorkers to do similar. 7 In terms of these statements earlier, 8 I'm very interested in Intro. 454-A on whatever 9 modification the Police Department has to make it 10 more effective. I'm sure that working together we 11 can put something good for the people of New York 12 forward. 13 I do have a concern about Intro. 536, 14 and I understand that there is a target practice. 15 There are many people who use rifles and pistols for 16 target practice, and I am concerned that a husband 17 and wife, a father and a daughter, or whatever, may 18 not be able to buy two rifles at the same time under 19 this law. So, it's just a concern. 20 Having said that, I will turn this 21 back to you, Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 23 James. 24 Council Member Foster. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Thank you. I 58 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 have a brief question. 3 First of all, I'd like to thank the 4 panel, and before I get to my question I'd just like 5 to say that in reference to guns in the Police 6 Department there are some times where the guns are 7 in the right hand and used wrongly, and I think if 8 we asked the families of Bumpers and Diallo, that 9 they might think it's just as bad as toxic waste. 10 But my question is just for clarification. 11 Director Prasso, second to last 12 paragraph when you say the bill does not contain an 13 exemption for purchased by police officers, peace 14 officers and law enforcement agencies; do you mean 15 that there is no exemption for these individuals to 16 purchase a gun in their capacity as a police 17 officer, a peace officer or a law enforcement agency 18 officer? Or should there be an exemption because 19 they are in these positions? 20 MR. PRASSO: I believe we are looking 21 for an exemption for people who are in those 22 positions in order to make those purchases. That's 23 our concern with the bill. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: So it would be 25 because they're in this specific field they should 59 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 be given an exemption, as opposed to needing the 3 exemption to purchase the weapons for work? 4 MR. PRASSO: Well, police officers are 5 permitted under New York, I'm talk about police 6 officers in particular now, New York State law, to 7 purchase weapons when and if they want them. 8 This rule, bill would limit their 9 ability to do so, and we don't really believe it's 10 appropriate. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 13 Council Member, very interesting observation. 14 Because it is a bill that I wrote and I didn't take 15 that into consideration, it's something we need to 16 think about, we will be contacting you on that. 17 For purposes of planning, there are 18 no more questions from Council members for this 19 panel, so we will be taking -- yes, after this one 20 set of questions by Council Member Gentile, we will 21 be taking a short break followed by Senator 22 Schneiderman, and then panels on either side of this 23 issue, made up of leading advocates from all over 24 the country. 25 The first panel after the senator 60 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 will be Dr. Jeremiah Barondess from Doctors Against 3 Handgun Injury, and two people who were the 4 architects of the lawsuit against the gun 5 manufacturers, Alisa Barnes and Lucy Allen from the 6 Economic Consulting. That will happen after a short 7 break, but first we will go to Council Member 8 Gentile. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Thank you, 10 Chairman. 11 Mr. Feinblatt, I'm pretty clear on 12 your position, or the City's position on the bills 13 that we talked about, I'm just curious about your 14 discussion on the Brooklyn Gun Court, and your 15 praise of the Brooklyn Gun Court and then soon 16 thereafter talking about the felony gun possession 17 loophole and what that loophole has produced over 18 the last several years. 19 Now, many of us in this panel have 20 been prosecutors, and we've been in gun parts 21 before. There have been gun parts I think in every 22 borough of this City. 23 What in your opinion is happening in 24 this Brooklyn Gun Court that has made this 25 different? 61 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 MR. FEINBLATT: Well, I think that 3 there are several advantages to the approach. One 4 is, as you know, it really only concentrates on five 5 precincts, and, so, there becomes a very close 6 relationship between the police and the prosecutors 7 and really trying to understand what's going on on 8 the street in those five precincts. I think that 9 what we have also done is set unprecedented time 10 lines where we're requiring that the cases be 11 disposed of in 180 days which is much faster than as 12 you know, than the average. 13 The other advantage is that we have 14 dedicated prosecutors working in those parts and, 15 so, it avoids some of the inevitable sort of 16 shifting of cases from prosecutor to prosecutor, 17 and, of course, we have one judge. And we have a 18 trial back-up card -- the judge actually both hears 19 the motions in the case and tries the case and so 20 there's not forum shopping. And, so, I think that 21 what you can say is we closed all the loopholes, 22 we're making sure things aren't able to fall through 23 the cracks, and we're basically having a judge that 24 is able to say the buck stops here, and we're going 25 to arraign the indictment, I'm going to hear the 62 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 motions and I'm going to try the case, there's no 3 other place to go. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: So what 5 you're saying in effect is that the loophole in the 6 law for the unduly harsh sentence is not being used 7 in those parts; is that what you're saying? 8 MR. FEINBLATT: I would say if you 9 look at those parts, the product of the Brooklyn Gun 10 Court, if you look at the disposition from those in 11 that part, you see that it is very different from 12 the disposition in Brooklyn as a whole or other 13 parts of the City as a whole. And that is not to say 14 that we shouldn't go to the legislature. We 15 absolutely should. There is too big a loophole in 16 the law, we need to close the law today, judges need 17 to start having a different mindset about guns. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: That raises 19 my next question. What efforts have you made with 20 the State Legislature to close that loophole? 21 MR. FEINBLATT: Well, we are actually 22 beginning discussions, and have started to have 23 discussions with them, and of course, I would hope 24 that the Council would also take the step of a 25 resolution in this area. 63 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 It is absolutely necessary that we 3 have the loophole closed here. 4 This is a discussion in large part 5 about holding gun manufacturers liable, but all of 6 us who have studied this area know that the best 7 law, whether it's a strict liability law or whether 8 it's another type of law, there will still be 9 illegal guns that get into the hands of criminals, 10 and that is going to happen and what we have to do 11 is make sure that when illegal guns get into the 12 hands of criminals, that we send an absolutely 13 unambiguous message, and that message has to be 14 jail. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: What efforts 16 have you made to replicate what's going on in the 17 Brooklyn Gun Court throughout this City? 18 MR. FEINBLATT: Well, we are looking 19 at other boroughs actually at this time. We thought 20 it was smart to start in one borough and test the 21 results. We're getting data that is encouraging to 22 us but it's early, but I would expect that if that 23 data continues to be as encouraging as it has been, 24 that we would move into other boroughs. 25 There is no doubt that you have to 64 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 work on many levels in this area, as I know the 3 Council is aware of, and so expansion of the 4 demonstration project in Brooklyn is one, going to 5 the State Legislature is another, holding gun 6 manufacturers liable is another. We need to do all. 7 This is not a choice that we need to make, is one 8 approach smarter than the other, what we need to do 9 is work together on all of the approaches, because 10 gun violence requires a gun and it requires a 11 criminal, and, so, we need to work on the 12 proliferation of guns, the illegal sale of guns, 13 through the types of the legislation that we're 14 discussing today, we need to work on it through the 15 litigation that the City has been hard at work on 16 for the past three years, and we need closer to home 17 in our own back yard to make sure that our own state 18 laws are absolutely sending the right message, and 19 the right message when it comes to firearms is jail. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: And that 21 discussion with the Albany leadership is continuing, 22 or has started? 23 MR. FEINBLATT: Yes, absolutely we 24 have begun these discussions. We cannot have a law 25 that is only good on paper, it's rhetoric; we have 65 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 to have a law that actually translates into actual 3 action in the courtroom. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Thank you, 5 Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 7 Council member. We appreciate your input as a former 8 prosecutor, as well as Helen Foster. 9 Council Member Reed. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Yes. I just, in 11 thinking through a lot of what's happening here, and 12 the question that Council Member Moskowitz asked, 13 what does the Police Department do with confiscated 14 firearms? 15 MR. PRASSO: If they're used as 16 evidence in court, they're held until such time as 17 the court no longer needs them, and then they're 18 ultimately destroyed. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: So, all 20 confiscated firearms are destroyed? 21 MR. PRASSO: To the best of my 22 knowledge, yes. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: And that goes 24 for the court system, too? Where we periodically see 25 you on TV, the number of guns that are taken away 66 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 from people as they try to enter the court room, 3 which to me is unbelievable that anybody would try 4 to bring a weapon into the court room, but does that 5 become the property of the Police Department as 6 well, or is that something different? 7 MR. PRASSO: I'm not sure I understand 8 you, Councilman. You're referring to guns that 9 people surrender when they enter a court room? 10 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: No, they attempt 11 to bring them in and then they're confiscated at the 12 check points in the courtroom. 13 MR. PRASSO: So, those people would be 14 arrested, correct? 15 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Right. Those are 16 court officers. Does that become the property of -- 17 MR. PRASSO: The property eventually 18 enters into the custody of the New York City Police 19 Department's Property Clerk Division, and when the 20 guns are no longer needed for any criminal 21 proceedings they're destroyed. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: And what is the 23 policy that if someone has a legal gun but they 24 attempt to bring it into a situation where they 25 shouldn't and it's taken away, do we just hold it 67 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 and then give it back to them when they leave the 3 premises, or do we see that as a violation? 4 CAPTAIN RICHTER: My experience, and 5 actually it's only from personal experience, is that 6 it's returned to me after it's safe guarded at the 7 entrance to the court. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: So, even though 9 someone owns a legal handgun, knows perfectly well 10 that there's a sign that says you can't bring a 11 handgun in here, just like right over there, the 12 checkpoint here, magnetometer, and then they try to 13 bring it in and they find that they have it, it's 14 taken away, confiscated, we give it back to them? 15 Doesn't dumb count for anything? 16 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I'm not quite sure 17 specifically what you're referring to; however, if I 18 was on personal business, going to -- 19 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: You're talking 20 about yourself? 21 CAPTAIN RICHTER: Talking about 22 myself, a police officer -- 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Please speak 24 into the mic. 25 CAPTAIN RICHTER: Any police officer 68 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 as defined under 120 of the criminal procedure law, 3 on personal business, my understanding is the court 4 administration has a policy that personal business, 5 you cannot bring your firearm into the court room. 6 The court offices safeguard the 7 firearm, it's locked up and on your exit of the 8 court room it's returned to you. Or you can just not 9 enter the court room, or you can be denied entrance. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: I understand 11 that. I would assume in that case you would have 12 told the court officers that you're carrying a gun 13 and handing it to them. I'm talking about people 14 that have them confiscated because evidently they're 15 trying to sneak it in, even though it's legal. Do we 16 allow them to continue to have their gun after that? 17 CAPTAIN RICHTER: Well, that goes into 18 a question I suppose on the Licensing Division. 19 I have had incidents where attorneys 20 have snuck firearms into court rooms and their 21 licenses have been subsequently revoked. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Their license to 23 practice law or their license to have the gun? I'd 24 take them both. Maybe it would teach them a lesson. 25 CAPTAIN RICHTER: I'm not quite sure 69 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 what disposition was made on their license to 3 practice law. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Thank you. 5 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 6 Council member. I'd also like to welcome my 7 colleague from Queens, Helen Sears, who has been 8 here for a long time actually, and also sits on five 9 other committees, not a member of this Committee but 10 feels so strongly that she graces us with her 11 presence. 12 Again, we're going to be taking a 13 short break. Anyone testifying after the break, 14 please hand in your testimony, we do have most of 15 it. We read it all. Some of it is very long, so 16 please cut it down to about three to five minutes, 17 and after the break, again, we'll be hearing from 18 the State Senator and panels on either side. The 19 break will be about five minutes. Thank you. 20 (Recess taken.) 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I will now call 22 to testify, State Senator Eric Schneiderman. 23 Senator, thank you very much for 24 coming down here and being with us. I know you have 25 a very busy schedule. I also know this is very 70 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 important to you so we appreciate your efforts in 3 this regard. 4 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you very 5 much. I have a somewhat busy schedule but I'm very 6 happy to be here because issues relating to gun 7 safety and gun control are tremendously important to 8 me, and I actually do think that today's hearing. 9 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I'm not sure 10 your mic is on. 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: The button says 12 "mic on." 13 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: You're in the 14 New York City Council, Senator. 15 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Councilman 16 Gentile knows that in the State Senate the chair 17 will just cut your microphone off. They control it 18 from the podium, when they don't like what you're 19 saying, and needless to say, I've had that happen to 20 me many times. 21 No, but I'm happy to be here, and I 22 really wanted to be here, and I've spoken over many 23 years with Council Member Yassky, before he was a 24 Council member and I were working as lawyers, and I 25 spoke to him about this. 71 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 I do think that today's hearing is 3 really an historic event in a very simple way. I 4 think this represents the initiation of a serious 5 campaign by people in New York State and New York 6 City, to do something about the abuses of an 7 extremely profitable industry that seeks to expand 8 its profits through irresponsible sales and 9 marketing practices. 10 I don't think that we can afford the 11 luxury of disjointed efforts, and I'm really here, 12 and I've spoken to several other members of the 13 State Legislature, to offer support and to urge all 14 of you, that we need to work together at the City 15 and State level to accomplish this. 16 The reason we're here very simply is, 17 we're not here because of any confusion about public 18 health issues, Dr. Barondess' testimony, he's coming 19 on now, I think that the record is extraordinarily 20 clear, and I would also respectfully submit we're 21 not here because of any confusion about 22 constitutional issues. I don't think we're really in 23 any areas that tread in any way on the second 24 amendment. 25 We're here because we're at one of 72 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 those points in American history where there is a 3 conflict between an extremely profitable industry 4 and the public interest, and if you look at the 5 history of American tort law, and if you look at the 6 history of the evolution of commerce and the 7 regulation of commerce, you'll see this conflict 8 over and over again. Going back to the railroads who 9 contended that it was outrageous to suggest that 10 they be held responsible when they drove by people's 11 houses and the fire coming off the trains caused 12 those houses to burn down, because how in the world 13 could you possibly impose the burdensome requirement 14 that they filter out flames flying out of 15 locomotives, and through the automobile industry, 16 the chemical industry and the tobacco industry, the 17 conflict is between profit and the public interest 18 and the conflicts are the same, the arguments are 19 the same, and with all due regard to my friends who 20 are here in opposition to gun control and gun safety 21 measures, historically the result is always the 22 same, the public interest ultimately does prevail. 23 But we have a long road to go in this particular 24 issue, and I would respectfully request that today 25 be viewed only as the beginning, that we get the 73 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 evidence that you're accumulating, we get the record 3 for you, we take it up to Albany where we have the 4 opportunity in the coming year I think to change the 5 state law regarding gun liability. And I would like 6 to make reference in particular to one area that is 7 before you, while there are several different 8 resolutions and bills that I support that are here 9 today on the agenda. 10 I would like to focus you on the 11 issue of the code of conduct. The suggestion in the 12 code of conduct, whether imposed through litigation 13 or imposed through legislation is an extremely 14 important vehicle economically, politically and 15 legally for this struggle. 16 The record before us, and, again, 17 Alissa Barnes and others who were involved in the 18 NAACP, the Accusport case are here, the record 19 before us is absolutely crystal clear, and I read 20 now from Judge Weinstein's decision, the evidence 21 presented at trial, an extremely detailed record, is 22 available to anyone who cares to look, demonstrated 23 that the defendants gun industry are responsible for 24 the creation of a public nuisance and could 25 voluntarily and through easily implemented changes 74 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 in marketing and more discriminating control of the 3 sales practices of those to whom they sell their 4 guns, substantially reduced the harm occasioned by 5 the diversion of guns to the illegal market and by 6 the criminal possession and use of those guns. 7 That one sentence tells us everything 8 we need to know about the facts. The facts are 9 clear, the law is murky. 10 I'm here today to let you know that 11 those of us in the State Legislature who are as 12 passionate about this issue as the members of the 13 Council, are prepared, if it is necessary, to make 14 changes in the state law, to parallel or back-up the 15 changes you are seeking to make in the City law. 16 We have legislation that is pending 17 in Albany. It is a tremendous challenge sometimes to 18 get that legislation passed, and we need your help, 19 not just really as far as research, drafting and 20 advocacy goes, we need your help politically to 21 bring this to people's attention, and I hope that in 22 the Year 2004 when our legislative seats are all up 23 and we're all up for reelection that the issue of 24 doing something about the plague of gun violence in 25 our state and in our city will be a significant 75 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 issue in the election, and I hope that I will have 3 the support of everyone here in our effort to make 4 it an issue. 5 I commend you. I commend the chair. 6 As a former "gun toting Deputy Sheriff, not a 7 prosecutor, I commend you for your devotion to this 8 issue, and I do want to say that those of us who 9 actually have used guns, and appreciate, you know, 10 the good and the bad of the use of firearms, I think 11 have a responsibility to see that we proceed forward 12 carefully and in a way that doesn't provide, you 13 should pardon the expression, ammunition to draw 14 enemies to defeat responsible efforts at gun safety 15 and gun control. I thank you all for inviting me 16 here today, and I look forward to using the 17 materials you're developing here in Albany, and I 18 hope that there will be an occasion where we may 19 invite you up before the end of the 2004 legislative 20 session to move on some of these same issues. 21 Thank you very much. 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Well, thank you. 23 I just had a question about the ability of the chair 24 to shut off the microphones of other people. 25 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, Senator 76 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Bruno actually has a manual about that, but I think 3 it's probably available to you. 4 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: We had a private 5 discussion right before you testified and we are 6 passing many resolutions to Albany today. You're 7 here, please help us bring them up. We will be 8 obviously following that up with a letter to you, 9 but to thank you for actually being here. 10 Councilman Yassky would like to say 11 something. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: I simply want 13 to thank the Senator for being here this morning, 14 throughout the entire hearing in fact. 15 Your leadership on this and so many 16 other issues has been of inestimable benefit to my 17 constituents. It's an honor that you chose to attend 18 this hearing today. 19 Thank you very much. 20 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you very 21 much. 22 SPEAKER MILLER: Thank you. We have a 23 small change in the order. We have a witness who 24 would like to testify who we're honored to have here 25 today with us. Ms. Thelma Davis, the mother of James 77 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Davis, would you say some words in honor of Stop The 3 Violence Program founded by her son James Davis, and 4 in whose memory and in whose honor we are having 5 this hearing. 6 Ms. Davis, please come forward. It's 7 a pleasure to have you with us today. 8 MS. DAVIS: Thank you for inviting me. 9 I didn't get a chance to read up on my literature, I 10 just got it. I was going to give a good presentation 11 but now I'll just have to give one from the heart. 12 I represent my son James Davis, you 13 know he was assassinated here, due to an illegal 14 gun, and I'm here to say that I oppose the use of 15 firearms, especially those that are not legally -- 16 I'm trying to find my words. Excuse me. I was 17 sitting back there, I just walked in because I was 18 in the other Chamber and listening to the lead 19 poisoning and I didn't know which one to come in and 20 I just walked in here later after I found that you 21 were in here. So, I was trying to get my notes and 22 everything together. But I do say that I am against 23 the illegal arms, firearms, and I don't know exactly 24 what else to say except that I am against it. I know 25 my son has been against it for years, and it's been 78 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 going for ten years that he's been trying to get 3 illegal arms and violence off the streets of New 4 York, and you know what the results of that was and 5 since he was assassinated here with an illegal arm. 6 So, I'm just here to express myself 7 and to say that I am against it. I have my other son 8 Jeffrey, who I hope to be working along with the 9 folks here, and maybe he can continue on some of the 10 work that my son James is doing, and I thank you 11 very much for inviting me. 12 Do you have any questions? Maybe I 13 can answer a question rather than try to make a 14 speech. 15 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I'm sure we 16 will. Let me just quickly say on behalf of everyone 17 that your son James, his work with regard to taking 18 guns off the street, was just remarkable, and we 19 miss him every day. This Committee misses him more 20 than anyone else. He was, not to put my other 21 members down, but the hardest working member of this 22 Committee. When I had to sit here sometimes to 5:00, 23 6;00, 7:00 at night, he sat with me the entire time. 24 In fact, people came to the hearings just to hear 25 him speak. He was an amazing, amazing presence on 79 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 this Committee, and that's why we're doing this 3 today, and we're not going to just do this today, 4 we're going to remember him in everything we do, 5 because of the fine work he did and what he stood 6 for, and let me say that your being here today to 7 follow up with what he did is very noble and in you 8 and in possibly your son his work will go on. So, 9 thank you for coming down. 10 Council Member Moskowitz. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Yes. Thank 12 you very, very much, Mrs. Davis. I don't know if you 13 remember me, but I was at your home a couple of 14 years ago, once with Gifford Miller. We were there 15 to visit with your son James Davis, and I appreciate 16 your coming. 17 I just also wanted to say that in my 18 view, mothers, and particularly mothers of victims 19 of gun violence, has been one of the strongest 20 advocates, and your leadership, as well as the 21 leadership of others, is incredibly important. 22 Mothers Against Guns and various women's and mothers 23 organizations have been absolutely critical in this 24 fight, and, so, I want to thank you for coming and I 25 want to ask that we continue to work with you. 80 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 There's no one who can speak, unfortunately, more 3 eloquently as if someone who has lost a loved one, 4 so thank you very much. 5 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Council Member 6 Sanders. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Thank you, 8 Mr. Chair. Good to see you again, Mother Davis. How 9 are you? 10 MS. DAVIS: I'm doing very well. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER SANDERS: Good. I'm 12 glad of that. I just, of course, want to refer my 13 constituent, Liz Goldsmith, to you. She's created an 14 organization Mothers Against Gun Violence, and I'm 15 sure that you can tie into many, but that is one of 16 the wordy ones, and I just want to continue to say 17 if there's anything I can do, by all means, please 18 just let me know. Good to see you again. 19 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Councilwoman 21 Foster. Don't go anywhere yet, Mrs. Davis. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER FOSTER: Hi, Mrs. 23 Davis. How are you? I just want to say that you 24 don't ever have to look for words, the fact that you 25 lived through what you lived through, and that your 81 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 son was assassinated by an illegal gun, says 3 everything that in my opinion needs to be said in 4 terms of gun and gun control, and it's kind of, in 5 some ways I think, at least for me, I'm sitting here 6 in vain because I don't see how someone could sit 7 and justify guns when each and every day from the 8 date your son was assassinated you have to wake up 9 with the reality that your son was murdered by an 10 illegal gun. And I just want to let you know that 11 James was who he was obviously because of a mother 12 as strong as you, and there was no time, especially 13 in this Committee, James started every sentence with 14 "as a former police officer," and we used to laugh 15 because we knew it was coming 16 , so I want you to know that you don't ever have to 17 look for words because you are living testament to 18 what we're trying to do here and may God continue to 19 bless you, because while the days have stretched 20 from his death, it doesn't make it any easier, and I 21 really do keep you and your family in my prayers. 22 MS. DAVIS: Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 24 Council Member Yassky. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Mrs. Davis, I 82 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 just wanted to thank you for coming here. Your 3 leadership and strength and determination has been 4 an inspiration to us all. And I would say whatever 5 progress we're able to make on guns will be not 6 because of James assassination, but because of the 7 strength and determination and commitment that he 8 showed every day before it, and that you and your 9 family have shown since. So, thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I think we're 11 done with our questioning. So, thank you very much. 12 MS. DAVIS: Thank you. 13 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: As was said, if 14 you ever need anything from us, as the entire City 15 Council, you just come let us know. Thank you. 16 MS. DAVIS: I thank you all for your 17 words. Thank you. 18 Now we'll call the next panel 19 consisting of Dr. Jeremiah Barondess, from Doctors 20 Against Handgun Injury; Lisa Barnes and Lucy Allen 21 from NERA Economic Consulting. 22 Let me also welcome Council Member 23 Kendall Stewart, who is the architect of the bill we 24 discussed earlier. Council Member Stewart was at the 25 lead paint hearing. The bill regarding insurance, an 83 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 insurance requirement for the owners of guns, and he 3 has been given all of the testimony regarding that, 4 and will be fully briefed. So thank you for joining 5 us, Kendall, and thank you for your efforts on 6 behalf of stemming the flood of illegal guns in this 7 City, and for the bill you introduced. 8 Again, we do have copies of your 9 testimony, so as much as you could limit it, we 10 would appreciate that, and I believe, Doctor, you 11 will go first. 12 DR. BARONDESS: Thank you very much, 13 Mr. Chairman. I am pleased and honored to be here. 14 I'm Jeremiah Barondess, President of the New York 15 Academy of Medicine, and I appear here before you 16 not only as a physician, but as the head of an 17 important New York institution concerned with and 18 focused on health of urban population. 19 The Academy of Medicine organized and 20 continues to manage an entity called Doctors Against 21 Handgun Injury, which is now three years old, and 22 consists of a consortium of 12 major, the 12 major 23 clinical societies in the United States. 24 The membership of Doctors Against 25 Handgun Injury contains in the aggregate some 84 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 400,000 American physicians, two-thirds of all 3 doctors in this country, the vast majority of whom 4 believe that our ongoing epidemic of death and 5 injury due to firearms is an urgent clinical and 6 public health problem, and I've appended to my 7 testimony that you have a list of the member 8 societies of Doctors Against Handgun Injury. 9 Firearms take the lives of more than 10 28,000 Americans each year, 2,000 of whom are 11 residents of New York State, and in addition, there 12 is more than 90,000 non-fatal injuries each year due 13 to firearms. 14 The Leonard Davis Institute at the 15 University of Pennsylvania this year published 16 materials that estimated that one-third of American 17 households contain a gun. There are some 200 million 18 guns present in the United States, nearly one for 19 every citizen in the country. 20 Contrary to popular belief, some 58 21 percent of firearm fatalities are suicides, not 22 homicides, and most of these are committed with 23 handguns. 24 Thirty-eight percent are homicides 25 and about three percent are unintentional shootings, 85 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 a category that affects particularly children and 3 adolescents. 4 This annual toll of 28,000 deaths can 5 be compared for the sake of proportion to 14,000 6 deaths annually due to AIDS, some 20,000 due to 7 illicit drugs, 4,000 due to cancer of the cervix, 8 and 284 last year due to West Nile infection. 9 Plainly, we have a major epidemic on our hands. 10 The costs of this epidemic need to be 11 measured not only in the expanding circles of human 12 tragedy that's spread from each fatality, such as 13 was exemplified by Ms. Davis appearance here today, 14 but also by the opportunity costs to our society of 15 the aggregate years of productive life lost as a 16 result of these deaths. 17 In addition, non-fatal firearm 18 injuries in 1997, according to the Federal Agency 19 for Health Care Research and Quality, resulted in 20 some 35,000 hospitalizations, which in turn produced 21 aggregate hospital charges over $800 million and 29 22 percent of these patients were uninsured. 23 Our efforts at Doctors Against 24 Handgun Injury are based on a public health 25 perspective which focuses resources particularly on 86 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 prevention and on the semblance of surveillance data 3 which would allow more effective prevention efforts. 4 The public health perspective studies 5 all premature death, disability and injury. Those 6 caused by gun violence fit easily into that 7 perspective, through which populations at risk, the 8 circumstances around various types of shooting 9 incidents, the kinds of firearms involved and other 10 factors can be assembled and brought to bear on risk 11 reduction prevention. 12 These efforts are informed by studies 13 that go beyond suicide prevention and include the 14 dissemination of available data to policy makers 15 like yourselves. 16 Some of what we've learned is 17 exemplified by a few facts I offer you now. 18 First, some 75 percent of homicide 19 victims are shot, and nearly 60 percent know their 20 attackers. Most are shot with handguns. 21 Second, 20 percent of firearm 22 homicides are committed during a robbery, 16 percent 23 during a family argument, six percent during a drug 24 deal. 25 Third, more of these deaths occur at 87 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 home than at any other location. 3 Fourth, people in households in which 4 guns are present are 40 percent likelier to be 5 homicide victims overall. 6 Women in such households are nearly 7 three times as likely to be homicide victims, and 8 people in such homes are three and a half times 9 likelier to suicide with a firearm and nearly four 10 times likelier to die of unintentional firearm 11 injury. 12 It is exceedingly dangerous to have a 13 gun in the house. 14 Each day nine children die of 15 unintentional firearm injury in this country. 16 Annually more children than police die 17 firearm-related deaths. 18 New York State suffers because 19 illegal gun traffickers bring guns in from states 20 with weak laws and sell them on our streets. Guns 21 used for criminal purposes in New York have been 22 traced to original purchases in nearly all 48 23 contiguous states, although the majority come from 24 southern and neighboring states. 25 In the Year 2001, the last year for 88 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 which data are available, nearly 2,000 crimes in New 3 York involve guns from Florida, Georgia, the 4 Carolinas and Virginia, while only 78 guns used by 5 criminals in those states originated in New York. 6 Senator Schumer has noted that the 7 number of crimes in New York committed with guns 8 from these five states more than doubled from 1999 9 to 2001. 10 In 1999, almost 1,000 guns used in 11 New York crimes originated from those states, while 12 only 61 guns used by criminals in those five states 13 were originally sold here. 14 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Doctor, if you 15 could please -- we have the statistics and if you 16 could get to the bills -- 17 DR. BARONDESS: Okay, cut to the 18 chase. 19 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: -- That we have 20 on today, which I know comes on the next page, we'd 21 appreciate it. Thank you. 22 DR. BARONDESS: With regard to the 23 resolutions and introductions on the Committee 24 agenda, we strongly support the language in 25 Resolution 288 concerning closing the gun show 89 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 loophole. The loophole is a clear public health 3 threat. Background checks have been demonstrated to 4 have prevented large numbers, in fact, nearly 5 700,000 proscribed potential buyers requiring 6 handguns and the estimate is that thereby some 7 10,000 deaths have been prevented over a five-year 8 period. 9 We advocate restoring, by the way, 10 the waiting period between firearm purchase and 11 possession, I won't dilate on that further. 12 Regarding Resolution 289, we support 13 the strengthening of firearm licensing requirements, 14 in particular its extension to individuals convicted 15 of domestic violence, misdemeanor, assault or 16 multiple misdemeanors. 17 With regard to 487 and 191, we really 18 have no applicable data, although the analogy with 19 prior experience with the tobacco industry suggests 20 a long and tortured prognosis for those efforts, at 21 least in my opinion. 22 Regarding introductions 536 and 1000, 23 we strongly support the restriction of firearm 24 purchases at a level such as the one proposed here, 25 one gun per 90 days, an action which would limit 90 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 large scales to our purchases and gun running in the 3 City of New York. 4 Regarding Introduction 454 and 363, I 5 would only comment that firearm fatalities and 6 non-fatal injuries are largely related to the use of 7 handguns. 8 While handguns represent only a third 9 of all privately-owned firearms in the United 10 States, they're responsible for nearly 11 three-quarters of all homicides committed with 12 firearms and some 70 percent of all suicides 13 committed with a firearm. 14 It's my opinion we might with greater 15 effect focus on handguns. 16 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Doctor, we 17 completely agree. Unfortunately, we don't have 18 control over handguns, and we are calling on Albany 19 to do exactly the same. 20 DR. BARONDESS: I have appended to 21 these comments a series of charts published in 2001 22 by the CDC, which I commend to your inspection. I 23 appreciate very much the opportunity to be here, and 24 I think it's a wonderful thing you're doing and we 25 will help in any way we can going forward. 91 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 4 Doctor. I'll hold questions til the panel is 5 finished. So, please continue. 6 MS. ALLEN: My name is Lucy Allen. I'm 7 an economist at National Economic Research 8 Associates, commonly known as NERA. NERA is an 9 economic consulting firm of 500 professionals with 10 offices worldwide. My office is here in New York 11 City. 12 NERA was retained by the NAACP three 13 years ago to examine the flow of handguns from the 14 legal to the illegal market. This past April I 15 testified regarding the results of that research in 16 the NAACP versus Accusport case before Judge 17 Weinstein in Brooklyn. 18 Judge Weinstein found our analysis 19 and conclusions accurate and reliable. 20 As part of our work in that case, we 21 analyzed sales data from gun manufacturers, 22 distributors and dealers, and trace data from the 23 ATF on guns recovered in crime. The trace data from 24 the ATF revealed the chain from manufacturer to 25 distributor to dealer that a recovered crime gun 92 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 followed. 3 It's my understanding that the trace 4 data with the level of detail that we analyzed had 5 not ever been produced by the ATF before. 6 Among other things we found the 7 following five results, and I have colorful charts 8 which I'm just going to quickly step through. 9 One, the vast majority of handguns 10 recovered in crime in New York were purchased from 11 gun dealers in other states. 12 Chart 1 shows that this big red part, 13 85 percent of handguns used in crime in New York 14 were bought from dealers in other states. Since it's 15 illegal to buy a handgun from a dealer in a state in 16 which one is not a resident, it is clear that 17 trafficking and straw purchase is a substantial 18 source of guns used in crime. 19 Two, most of these crime guns come 20 from space with weaker gun laws. For example, 21 looking at Chart 2A, shows the flow of crime guns 22 from Florida, a weak gun law state, to New York, a 23 relatively strong gun law state is much more than 24 the flow of crime guns from New York to Florida. 25 We found a similar pattern for 93 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Georgia, Chart 2B. 3 Three, although in general gun 4 manufacturers exert little or no control to prevent 5 their guns from entering the illegal market, we did 6 find that small variations among their practices 7 could make a big difference. 8 As shown in Chart 3, we found that 9 the more of these eight practices a manufacturer 10 follows, the lower the likelihood that its guns go 11 to criminals. 12 So, for example, a manufacturer that 13 follows one practice, such as requiring evidence of 14 a store front, has a smaller percent of its sales 15 going to criminals than a manufacturer that does not 16 follow any of these practices. 17 Four, we found that a small percent 18 of dealers were responsible for the vast majority of 19 guns going quickly to criminals, and that the 20 identity of these dealers does not change much over 21 time. 22 Chart 4 shows that only seven percent 23 of the 200,000 plus dealers active between 1995 and 24 2000 were responsible for all of these crime 25 handguns. 94 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Five, we found that there are 3 characteristics of dealers that are significantly 4 correlated with having a larger percent of their 5 guns going to criminals. These characteristics 6 included, for example, having multiple federal 7 firearm licenses at the same location. 8 We found that if there was more than 9 one license at the same address, then a dealer at 10 that address was more likely to have its guns going 11 to criminals. 12 Similarly, we found that dealers that 13 sell multiple guns to the same person have a greater 14 percent of their guns going to criminals. 15 We also found that dealers whose guns 16 are recovered out of state are more likely to have 17 guns going to criminals. 18 We took each of nine characteristics 19 we found statistically related to having a greater 20 percent of guns going to criminals and found the 500 21 dealers who were the worst in terms of each of these 22 characteristics. 23 We called these eight groups the 24 problem dealer groups. 25 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Our charts end 95 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 at four. 3 MS. ALLEN: I apologize. I can get you 4 that chart later today. 5 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 6 MS. ALLEN: There was a small 7 confidentiality issue. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: The testimony 9 also you'll be able to get to us? 10 MS. ALLEN: Yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Okay. Thank you. 12 MS. ALLEN: Absolutely. 13 Chart 5, which you do not have, is a 14 list of the dealers that are in one or more of the 15 problem dealer groups. So, for example, to be in the 16 out-of-state problem dealer group, a dealer would 17 have to be in the 500 dealers with the highest 18 percent of guns recovered out of state. We found 19 that about 1,600 dealers were in one or more of 20 these problem dealer groups. These approximately 21 1,600 problematic dealers, while representing less 22 than one percent of the 200,000 plus active dealers 23 together accounted for half of recovered crime guns. 24 Thank you. 25 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Well, thank you. 96 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 As you may know, I have an open mind regarding the 3 code of conduct situation, and that's what the 4 purpose of this hearing is, to get evidence of that, 5 and I'm amazed at your statistic, especially the one 6 that says seven percent of all dealers, seven 7 percent of dealers are responsible for all handguns 8 traced to crime. That's just an amazing statistic. 9 MS. ALLEN: The time to crime is three 10 years. So, when the time to crime is three years or 11 what the ATF considers a trafficking indicator, if 12 it's been 15 years since the gun was sold that it 13 was used in crime, it's less likely that gun was 14 purchased as a straw purchase or trafficking. 15 So, taking all guns recovered in 16 crime, that there is less than three years between 17 the time of sale and the recovery, seven percent of 18 dealers are responsible for every single one of 19 those. 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: It's an amazing 21 statistic, incredible. 22 Council Member Yassky. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Well, thank 24 you. I just simply first want to welcome and thank 25 Dr. Barondess for his testimony. Your formation of 97 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 doctors against handgun industry I think is a 3 critical part of the citizen movement that we are 4 building, and that I think it's going to have 5 success longer, not in what you heard of in this 6 long and torturous path, but I believe that we're 7 going to have success within the horizon, so I 8 commend you for your work. And I just also want to 9 thank Alissa Barnes for being here. Ms. Allen I 10 guess testified on behalf of the litigation team, 11 but members of this Committee should know that Ms. 12 Barnes has litigated not one, but two, I would say 13 the two single most important cases that have been 14 litigated against the gun industry and to my mind 15 scored tremendous successes in both of them, even 16 though neither resulted in a judgment, and 17 enforceable judgment against the defendants, both 18 one created law, and one laid out a record of facts 19 that produced a 100-page opinion by a judge that 20 said the entire factual case made by Ms. Barnes and 21 her team was correct, but some of the technicalities 22 of law weren't there to support liability, but that 23 factual record is going to be the undoing of the gun 24 industry, I believe, and I mean it. 25 So, I very sincerely say to you, 98 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 thank you, Ms. Barnes. 3 My only question would be, would you, 4 Ms. Barnes, and Ms. Allen, work with this Committee 5 and with myself, or with myself and the Committee 6 such as it would like to, on tailoring the code of 7 conduct even further. 8 The code of conduct bill, as I have 9 introduced it, gets at many of the elements that you 10 suggested the gun industry needs to do to be 11 responsible. I think you've suggested in your 12 testimony a couple of others, and if we could have 13 worked with you and with the data that you've 14 compiled, I think we could improve this bill even 15 further. 16 Thank you. 17 MS. BARNES: Council Member Yassky, I 18 do want to thank you for your very gracious 19 comments. 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Please identify 21 yourself for the record. 22 MS. BARNES: My name is Alissa Barnes. 23 And I was the counsel for the NAACP and also for a 24 group of plaintiffs in the Hamilton litigation. 25 We will of course within the bounds 99 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 of any confidentiality issue make all the 3 information, not just the statistical information, 4 but also some of the other information available to 5 the Council should it need it. At any time you can 6 call my office or any of the experts and we will do 7 everything we can. We commend your tremendous work 8 and the bills that you're authoring. 9 I just would want to say one thing 10 about a bill that has not been discussed today while 11 I've been here, which is my personal favorites among 12 these, which is 208, which ties the City's 13 purchasing to a code of conduct. And I think that in 14 this sort of situation the City has tremendous 15 leverage, thousands and thousands of glock guns, for 16 instance, are bought on behalf of the New York City 17 Police Department. 18 For instance, if you were to take the 19 approximately 1,500 dealers that Ms. Allen has 20 identified as problematic, or other dealers that 21 you, yourself, through your own research were to 22 identify as problematic, and say to glock no more 23 sales to those as a condition of receiving the very 24 substantial purchasing contract with the City of New 25 York. That would be the kind of thing that would 100 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 make a huge difference in terms of affecting safety, 3 affecting the way these people do business without, 4 as we heard earlier, running the risk of worrying 5 about putting them out of business, which I think is 6 not an issue, but those are the kind of things that 7 I think would make a huge difference. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Council Member 9 Moskowitz. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, 11 Mr. Chair. 12 I also want to thank Dr. Barondess 13 for his testimony and for all the work you've done 14 organizing positions, I agree with my colleague 15 David Yassky that this is a critical part of the 16 citizens movement on this issue. Obviously 17 physicians have unique credibility in this area and 18 so it's very, very important. 19 I wanted to ask Ms. Barnes a question 20 on the issue that you just mentioned that you didn't 21 think that the strict liability would put the gun 22 manufacturers out of business, and I wanted to know 23 why you think that? 24 MS. BARNES: Well, without going into 25 my varying beliefs about the strict liability bill 101 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 -- 3 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Speak into the 4 mic, please. 5 MS. BARNES: I'm sorry. 6 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: You can pull the 7 whole contraption over to you. 8 MS. BARNES: I have some concerns 9 about the strict liability bill that have nothing to 10 do with what was already said about being brought, 11 et cetera, and I'm not sure about the situation 12 after enactment if it were to happen, and how a bill 13 that was passed by New York City Council would be 14 dealt with by say the State courts, and so that if 15 you were shot in at 246th Street in the Bronx, 16 you've got a recovery, and if you were shot in 17 Yonkers you didn't. So, there are certain issues 18 that exist. And I think that the bills that don't 19 implicate a statewide standard of care, but just do 20 what you're talking about and what Councilman Yassky 21 talked about at the beginning of this, sending a 22 message to the courts and to the executive branches, 23 that the citizenry of the City of New York takes 24 this very seriously I think is a laudable and a 25 marvelous thing to be doing. 102 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 New York City, and the gun purchases 3 in New York City make up a very small percentage of 4 guns bought and sold by gun-makers and dealers. A 5 great percentage of the guns that are used here, as 6 the Police Officers testified earlier, are illegal 7 guns, and many DAs will tell you they never had a 8 case involving a legal gun. You know, I spent a lot 9 of years dealing with various DAs. So, there is an 10 underground issue of whether or not they're funding, 11 or their businesses will be implicated, but I think 12 certainly there is not a lot that New York City 13 itself could do that would really harm this 14 industry's business. I think perhaps, and as I meant 15 in 208, you can do affirmative things. I mean, as 16 goes New York City, perhaps so goes other cities, 17 Chicago, the State of New York, other people. Why 18 not say to them, look, we're going to do this 19 affirmatively, we're going to give you this 20 marvelous contract, you can do it with the holster 21 manufacturers, and all the bullet manufacturers, who 22 the City, you know, has a huge contract, do it 23 affirmatively. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Look, yes. 25 I mean, there are lots of ideas, and obviously we 103 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 should be sitting down with you and getting those 3 from you. You've obviously been at this very 4 successfully, and have made a very, very compelling 5 case. To me it's just important because as you've 6 heard, claims were made this morning that the strict 7 liability will put the gun manufacturers out of 8 business, and in my mind, Ms. Allen, am I getting it 9 correct? -- chart confirms my perspective, because 10 you have seven percent of the dealers are 11 responsible for this very large number of illegal 12 handguns, my point has always been you'll provide a 13 financial incentive with strict liability to have a 14 more responsible -- but let me just make one point 15 about the comment you make, because I think that's 16 an interesting point that a victim is able to 17 recover on 210th Street but not in Bronxville or 18 wherever. 19 My hope would be that those 20 localities, too, would impose strict liability and 21 they would see sort of the virtue of our kind of 22 corrective action. 23 Let me ask you one other question, 24 and, you know, this has gotten a little heated, 25 unfortunately, but I want to ask a question about 104 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 the issue of the interstate commerce clause and the 3 code of conduct, and my colleague has referenced my 4 perspective as, or at least as reported in the 5 press, is ridiculous and I wanted to kind of get 6 your view on this. 7 The lawyers I've consulted, and I'm 8 not a lawyer, so I don't claim to have any personal 9 expertise, have suggested that the code of conduct 10 has an interstate commerce clause problem. You know, 11 we can certainly think of examples where we can 12 regulate business in New York City but we can't 13 impose that. 14 Do you see any legal obstacles to the 15 code of conduct, vis-a-vis the interstate commerce 16 clause? Or in your view is that a non-issue? 17 MS. BARNES: Well, I would commend you 18 first to Judge Weinstein's opinion in the NAACP 19 case, which I think at least some members of the 20 Council have, and it's available and it's not -- 21 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: I've seen 22 it. Thank you. 23 MS. BARNES: He specifically addresses 24 that issue and cites cases. No, I do not think that 25 in any way a code of conduct implicates the commerce 105 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 clause, either foreign or the domestic commerce 3 clause. I mean, there are some people who also 4 believe that it interferes with the, I think it's 5 one aspect of it which deals with treaties between 6 the executive branch and say another government, 7 because many gun manufacturers you know are not 8 United States industries and a great deal of their 9 wealth and assets quickly return overseas, so we're 10 not dealing with the home grown American industry. 11 No, I don't think that the case law indicates that 12 it is a problem in the interstate commerce clause 13 and I do think it presents a very, very interesting 14 federalism issue that the Supreme Court of the 15 United States up until the last election was known 16 as the great champion of state's rights. This is a 17 classic state's welfare rights situation. The State 18 of New York, let's expound it to the state, is 19 saying here because our citizens are being harmed by 20 the 85 percent of guns, they come from South 21 Carolina, Florida, Georgia, we're taking these 22 steps, we're imposing these standards for anyone who 23 does business in New York. 24 So, then the Supreme Court has said 25 that the rights of states are paramount and now 106 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 we're running up against the right of North Carolina 3 say to govern itself differently. So, it presents a 4 very, very interesting federalism problem, that I 5 think that New York has long been in the forefront 6 of taking care of its own citizens. 7 So, as you push forward on this, I 8 think certain issues will be resolved. I think they 9 will all be in your favor in terms of imposing 10 standards, and you know, in the world of strict 11 liability, or you may know New York, through Mr. 12 Justice Cardozo, led the revolution in product 13 liability in 1915 with a case that was decided 14 against Ford Motor Company in New York, and set the 15 standard in the rest of the country. 16 The other example that I would offer 17 to you is California's emission control. California 18 imposed much more stringent emission controls on any 19 cars sold in California, there were commerce clause 20 arguments made there that said, look, you're 21 dictating the commerce among all of us, you can't do 22 that, and the courts have all said yes they can. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: You know 24 that's helpful. It seems to me that there is a 25 judgment factor. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but it 107 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 doesn't seem to me as an open and shut case and I 3 guess I'm not quite sure what happened when our code 4 of conduct differs from another localities code of 5 conduct. 6 MS. BARNES: The strictest one usually 7 governs. The strictest one governs. As a practical 8 matter, North Carolina people are being killed by 9 North Carolina illegal guns. So, it's only a matter 10 of time that, if the public policy is sound and the 11 specifics are sound, obviously it's only a matter of 12 time until the enlightenment that New York exhibits 13 will come to -- 14 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: We all hope 15 that. We all hope that. Thank you very much. 16 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you, 17 Council member. I just want to, before he does, 18 stand up for Council Member Yassky by saying I 19 thought he was calling me ridiculous. Because I 20 think the claim was that the claim that it was 21 unconstitutional was ridiculous, and I'm the one who 22 things that perhaps our action here would be 23 unconstitutional. So, I'm the one who should be mad 24 at him, I don't think he personally said you were, 25 but you could speak for yourself. 108 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: I think I'll 3 just let the whole "ridiculous" thing, ridiculous 4 shamiculous I always say. But I just wanted to let 5 Ms. Barnes know the good news on the purchasing, 6 City uses its own purchasing power, which you've 7 advocated and Chair Vallone held a hearing on that 8 bill and that idea a little while ago, so it's not 9 up for a hearing today. But I just spoke earlier 10 this week with a Los Angeles City Council member who 11 is going to introduce the same bill there, and we 12 are working to get introduced in other cities like 13 Miami, Chicago, as you suggested, and there is no 14 doubt in my mind that when you put some big cities 15 together, they have the market power to change the 16 way the gun industry operates. That's an alternative 17 route to liability. As you know, lawyers must argue 18 in the alternative and so must legislators push 19 forward in the alternative. We're going to take all 20 routes until we get this problem solved. 21 MS. BARNES: Here here. Thank you very 22 much. 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you all. 24 Oh, wait, I'm sorry. Stay one moment. I didn't 25 register the question. 109 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Kendall Stewart. Thank you. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Thank you. I 4 just wanted to get an idea of those guns that were 5 once legal and were lost and now they become illegal 6 because they're being held by someone and may commit 7 a crime, what percentage of that in New York are we 8 talking about? 9 Because we have quite a number of 10 people who buy guns legally, right? But they lost 11 the gun. The gun now becomes illegal to someone 12 else. So, I'm saying what percentage of that that 13 you find? 14 MS. BARNES: The guns that you're 15 giving an example of, somebody buys a gun in North 16 Carolina -- 17 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: No, not 18 necessarily in North Carolina. They buy the gun, 19 it's legal. I may have a legal gun. 20 MS. BARNES: As you heard today from 21 the licensing person, there are very, very few 22 permits for legal guns issued in the City of New 23 York. I think the number is somewhat a little over 24 100,000. There are very, very few. I would like to 25 say Robert DeNiro, Donald Trump and members of the 110 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Police Department are the only ones that have them. 3 So, people with permits are very, very few, and very 4 few of them, and the Police Department takes 5 extraordinary measures to ensure that people renew 6 on time and turn in guns. So what I think that 7 you're talking about is guns that are purchased in 8 other places legally and brought here which those 9 guns have to be registered immediately with the City 10 Police Department. 11 We don't really have numbers on the 12 number of illegal guns, as opposed to illegal guns. 13 I mean, the Police Department could 14 tell you what the number of legal guns is, and they 15 publish that every once in awhile in the Daily News, 16 but the number of illegal guns is only an estimate, 17 and in our cases we have used over the years the 18 number 2 million. But that again is a number that's 19 derived from Police Department estimates only, so we 20 don't know. 21 In short, I'm terribly sorry. It is 22 knowable, but we have not done the research, so 23 maybe Ms. Allen's group and other groups could help 24 perform that research which would be immensely 25 helpful. 111 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Do you have 3 any suggestions of how we can work and the hold we 4 can have on directly having the seller for guns, 5 some control on how we can get their records, or how 6 we can have some control on that? Because in New 7 York someone may go to Florida, buy a gun legally, 8 and that gun might be legally, the person may even 9 live in Florida, but they come here and then they 10 lose that gun. We have no way of really having that 11 connection, that control. 12 MS. BARNES: Well, is it your -- I 13 mean, it's not my experience in sort of dealing with 14 these cases that people come and lose the gun 15 actually. They may lend it to somebody. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Right. 17 Lending it is like losing it, because the person who 18 they lend it to may not be licensed to use a gun. 19 MS. BARNES: Right. And I think we 20 heard some very strong testimony from the Criminal 21 Justice Coordinator, Mr. Feinblatt, advocating very, 22 very harsh and stringent penalties to those people. 23 Our work, Ms. Allen's work and my 24 work deals with a little bit more as they say 25 upstream, so the dealers say in Florida who 112 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 repeatedly sell to the same individual every week 3 who is buying 20 to 30 guns, comes back week after 4 week after week, 20 to 30 guns, thanks a lot, Joe, 5 he puts them in his car, drives up I95 and brings 6 them into New York. 7 It's that kind of conduct that Ms. 8 Allen, the work demonstrates that your many bills 9 are trying to get a hold of. This is really not as 10 crystal ballish as it may seem. There are dealers 11 who very clearly know that they are selling to 12 people who are traffickers, and Ms. Allen did some 13 ground-breaking work that Judge Weinstein talked 14 about, and she actually ended up calling dealers 15 through a sort of marketing survey, something that 16 the gun industry had never done, never called the 17 dealers. And when she called the dealers they found 18 that yes, of course, they all know what a straw 19 purchaser is, they all know what a trafficker is, 20 they all know how to stop them from doing what 21 they're doing, but they have no economic incentive 22 to do so. 23 So, there is punitive economic 24 incentives and then there is some more carrot-like. 25 So in answer to your question is, we can identify 113 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 where the sources are, and there are various 3 mechanisms that you have in your power to turn off 4 those spigots of how the guns flow into New York. 5 Once they're here then we'll let the Criminal 6 Justice Coordinator put everybody in jail. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Sounds good. 8 Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 10 Doctor, we're well aware of your work with both this 11 Council and the previous one, and thank you for the 12 extensive testimony and the research that you've all 13 done. So, we look forward to working with you on 14 this issue. 15 Next panel will be Amy Heath from the 16 New York State Rifle and Pistol Association; Anthony 17 Imperato from Henry Repeating Arms; Randall Casseday 18 from Kahr Arms; and Jim Lesczynski, the New York 19 City's chapter of SCOPE. 20 As I said before, we have many 21 panels, so please -- we have your testimony and 22 please sum it up, keep it brief. I should probably 23 start from the left side of the table; does that 24 sound fair? 25 Please identify yourself and begin 114 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 testifying. 3 MR. IMPERATO: My name is Anthony 4 Imperato. I am the President of Henry Repeating Arms 5 Company. My family has been in the gun business in 6 New York City since 1911. I've been working in the 7 gun industry for 30 years myself. I only became 8 aware of this hearing late yesterday afternoon, so I 9 haven't read anything, I just was prompted to make 10 some comments about what I heard in the last two, 11 three hours. Let me get my notes, if you don't 12 mind. 13 Pardon my Brooklyn accent and my 14 nervousness. Regarding the liability issue, what 15 comes to mind immediately is that a manufacturer 16 will not be able to obtain products liability 17 insurance if he is held to this strict liability 18 standard hence putting the manufacturer immediately 19 out of business. That is one of the major issues 20 with that strict liability issue. 21 The second part of it that I see is 22 regarding the rifle shotgun permit holders and the 23 New York City Firearms Control Board is that no 24 individual in New York City will be allowed to own a 25 rifle or a shotgun if this goes into place. So, 115 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 there are many hunters, target shooters, and in 3 fact, when the assault rifle legislation was passed 4 several years ago, the Sergeant of the Firearms 5 Control Board who ran the Department for 30 years 6 said, quote, "A New York City rifle shotgun permit 7 in my estimate is a badge of honor. If someone 8 presents it, I know 99.9 percent they're of good 9 character. So, why are we looking to hurt 10 law-abiding citizens who want to legally own a rifle 11 and shotgun in the City of New York? 12 Another issue related to that is this 13 thing about ammunition and dealers in New York City 14 keeping records of ammunition. Every dealer in New 15 York City has an ammunition log record and logs the 16 sale of ammunition in that ammunition book, so I'm 17 not sure what that specific concern is. 18 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Is that required 19 by law now? 20 MR. IMPERATO: I believe it's required 21 by law. We've been doing it since 1911 so I think 22 it's a law. 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I will check on 24 that because that's what the law we might be 25 implementing will do, and we would not want to be 116 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 redundant. I don't believe that does exist. If 3 you're doing that now that's great, that's exactly 4 what we want, but I'll check on that also. 5 MR. IMPERATO: Okay. From what I see, 6 and, again, I only heard comments this morning. The 7 New York City Police Department could not handle 8 management of how this law, proposed law is being 9 written as far as controlling who bought what and 10 when. It just could not happen. 11 Another comment is, with all due 12 respect to the memory of Mr. Davis, as far as I know 13 from what I read, that specific sale was a legal 14 sale. It's been mentioned here many times that it 15 was illegal. The gentleman who purchased the gun was 16 checked out by the sheriff, I forget, it was in 17 North Carolina or South Carolina, he was checked 18 out, he was sold the gun by a legal dealer and it 19 was a legal transaction. It was a crime of passion. 20 Unfortunately the gentleman came up here, killed Mr. 21 Davis. It's a horrible incident, but it was not an 22 illegal sale. 23 All this leads me to my final point, 24 and I have three teenagers, and I'm very concerned 25 about this City. I love this City and I'm very 117 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 passionate about it, and I am against violence, and 3 let me make something perfectly clear, the gun 4 industry itself is against violence. 5 The people who own the manufacturing 6 companies in the gun industry and there are very 7 few, and even know the word billion dollars was 8 thrown around, a billion dollars is a small industry 9 and the gun industry is a small industry, whether 10 they want to know it or not. We will be put out of 11 business and then where is everyone going to go to 12 buy a gun to defend themselves, where is law 13 enforcement going to go, where is the military going 14 to go? 15 And I commend everybody for trying to 16 do a good job, and rid this civilization of 17 violence. They speak of two parts of the equation, 18 one being the gun and one being the criminal. 19 There's one part that I think everybody is 20 forgetting and if you can use your energies for 21 that, the Council members, and that is this: Why are 22 people committing crimes? Why is it happening? And 23 it's because there are addition franchise people, 24 there are people at the bottom of the economic 25 social ladder, there are uneducated people. They get 118 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 involved in drugs, prostitution, all kinds of 3 criminal activities. We have to go to the root of 4 the problem, and that is the problem. You can put 5 everyone behind jail for 100 years and you'll keep 6 filling up the jails, but the bottom line is, got to 7 get to the root of the problem, which is a severe 8 social problem that those people are criminals year 9 after year, family after family. 10 Thank you for the chance to speak my 11 mind. 12 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. I'll 13 hold questioning til the end of the panel. Thank you 14 for your testimony. 15 Ms. Heath, I notice your testimony is 16 13 pages long double sided, single spaced, so... 17 MS. HEATH: I added about 20 more 18 pages, I hope you don't mind. 19 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Not a problem. 20 MS. HEATH: No, I will condense it. 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 22 MS. HEATH: You're welcome. 23 I'm pleased to testify today on 24 behalf of the New York State Rifle and Pistol 25 Association. The New York State Rifle and Pistol 119 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Association is the New York State affiliate of the 3 National Rifle Association of America. 4 Before I begin, allow me on behalf of 5 our association to extend our condolences to the 6 family, friends and colleagues of Councilman James 7 Davis. 8 His murder was a deplorable act of 9 evil, and it does remind us that we bear a civic 10 responsibility to take stock of our lives in order 11 to best guard the rights and the safety of 12 innocence. We respectfully submit that the proposals 13 before the Committee today invade the rights of 14 innocence, and even if rights could or are to be 15 bargained away for security, a proposition we 16 believe our founding fathers would have deemed 17 shameful. 18 The proposals provide no measure of 19 security in return. In regards to Intro. 363 and 20 resolution 669, requiring rifle and shotgun owners 21 to obtain yearly liability insurance, the 22 Association opposes Intro. 363 and resolution 669. 23 These bills propose to fix a problem that does not 24 exist with solutions that the insurance industry 25 cannot and will not underwrite. 120 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Intro. 363 would effectively ban the 3 lawful possession in New York City of rifles and 4 shotguns by law abiding residents. If you smack 5 liability insurance on lawful citizens, no insurance 6 company that I know of will underwrite it, because 7 they don't cover people who commit vicious acts. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Ms. Heath, we 9 are going to make amendments to that bill. We've 10 subsequently learned what you are saying about 11 insurance policies, and any amendments will say that 12 intentional acts will not be covered because they're 13 not covered right now, and as you said, if you can't 14 get the insurance, we can't impose the liability for 15 someone to get that insurance. 16 MS. HEATH: Okay. 17 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: So, it would 18 only be insurance, and it's Kendall Stewart's bill, 19 I'm sure he'll bring it up even further, but it 20 would only be insurance that presently exists, 21 because we can't mandate that insurance that doesn't 22 exist be purchased. 23 Just because I saw you had a lot to 24 go on that -- 25 MS. HEATH: Right. 121 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: We won't be 3 asking for this insurance that doesn't exist 4 anymore. 5 MS. HEATH: Let's say for example, 6 presently I train women with safety in firearms at 7 the West Side Rifle and Pistol Range. I've trained 8 approximately 180 women on a 22 rifle. I've had no 9 accidents, and it's a very incredible program, 10 because the women walk out of there feeling 11 confident and they feel that they can safely and 12 responsibly handle a firearm. 13 Say, for example, I want to encourage 14 the women that I train to purchase firearms for 15 recreational purposes. You're going to impose 16 insurance upon them to purchase a firearm? They 17 won't be able to afford it to continue, if they 18 choose to hunt, if they choose to shoot 19 competitively. I think we're missing the big picture 20 here. 21 There are other things that you do, 22 besides -- with guns besides kill people. A gun is a 23 tool. There are hunters, there are gun collectors, 24 there are people who shoot recreationally, people 25 who shoot competitively. I get the feeling that 122 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 we're not focusing on a law-abiding citizen here. 3 We're focusing -- I know we want to all deal with 4 crime, but what's bothering me, I have a license, a 5 residence license to have a gun in my home in New 6 York City, and now I'm hearing that I'm going to 7 have to pay for insurance? I mean, it just doesn't 8 make any sense to me, why this is affecting the 9 law-abiding citizens. 10 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: You are covered 11 by your home-owner's insurance, just something else 12 we've learned. My Chief of Staff happens to have 13 come from the insurance industry already, so if you 14 own your home and have insurance, you would be 15 covered for everything that we will be putting the 16 bill in for. It would basically apply to people who 17 don't own homes or who might be renters who own 18 guns, and you know, I think we can always agree that 19 there are a large amount of accidents with guns, and 20 I don't think it's an unreasonable responsibility to 21 have insurance in case your gun does cause an 22 accident. 23 But it is covered right now. It is 24 not as unreasonable as it once was to bill, but we 25 appreciate your comments. 123 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 You can move on to another aspect. 3 Thanks. 4 MS. HEATH: Okay. Well, just to 5 reiterate, I have never seen an accident. I've been 6 shooting since a teenager, I've never seen an 7 accident with a firearm and I've never seen anyone 8 else kill another person with a firearm. I've been 9 around guns since I was 16. 10 Okay, moving on. To Intros 197, 210 11 and 487, creating causes action against 12 manufacturers and others. Intro. 197 would create a 13 cause of action against manufacturers including 14 punitive damages, and strict liability for personal 15 injury or death to a person in the City. The 16 manufacturer does not operate in accordance with the 17 code of conduct as set forth therein. 18 Intro. 210 would create a cause of 19 action against manufacturers in favor of the City, 20 including possible punitive damages, in strict 21 liability for personal injury or death to a City 22 employee in the course of the employee's duties. 23 These intros offer a morally repugnant vision of a 24 future in which American workers and entrepreneurs 25 are made to pay for the acts of genuine criminals 124 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 and for our politicians' failure to respond 3 effectively to the menace of violent criminals. 4 These intros constitute an arrogant 5 and unconstitutional presumption that the New York 6 City Council can dictate interstate or international 7 firearms commerce policy and regulation better than 8 Congress and the Justice Department. 9 Say, for example, you impose these 10 laws upon the gun manufacturers, many more jobs in 11 New York State will be lost as a result to this, as 12 these men can both testify to that. 13 And why is it their fault if a 14 criminal uses one of their guns to kill when so many 15 people just don't do that, as I said before, and 16 manufacturers didn't have anything to do with the 17 breach of security waving Mr. Davis and Mr. Ashkew 18 through to this meeting, and they didn't have 19 anything to do with Ashkew taking his gun from North 20 Carolina and using it illegally in New York City. 21 And wasn't a gun manufacturer responsible for making 22 the gun that Mr. Davis was carrying for protection. 23 And, again, I reiterate, guns are used for other 24 things besides killing - recreation, hunting, 25 competition or law enforcement and military, and if 125 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 you sue gun manufacturers for crimes committed with 3 guns, why not sue car companies for fatal drunk 4 driving accidents, or knife companies, when someone 5 takes their product to fatally stab a victim, or 6 swimming pool companies when a child drowns? 7 Intro. 536 and Resolution 1000, 8 limiting same-buyer sales to 1 per any 90-day 9 period. We oppose both of these laws. 10 The Declaration of Legislative 11 Findings and Intent to Intro. 536 recites that 12 "current City laws governing gun sellers are 13 inadequate to prevent the diversion of guns to the 14 illegal marketplace." We respectfully disagree. In 15 addition, regardless of the efficacy of current City 16 laws, rules and practice, the Council lacks 17 authority to legislate the proposed sales condition 18 regarding handguns ("firearms" as defined in the 19 Penal Law.) 20 Basically we feel that this law hurts 21 only gun collectors, hunters and competition 22 shooters. Criminals won't obey this. There are a 23 number of easily contemplated scenarios in which a 24 person would require more than one long gun at a 25 time. A parent could be planning to buy skeet guns 126 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 as presents for grown children, collectors regularly 3 purchase, sell and/or trade more than one firearms 4 at a time, just as collectors of stamps, coins, 5 comment books or any other sort of collectibles due. 6 We also oppose Intro. 454. We 7 recognize that the law was changed per charter from 8 the age of 18 to 21 in 2001. We opposed that measure 9 at the time but accepted that the Council is now 10 trying to make some conforming changes to the 11 Administrative Code. 12 We applaud the Council for 13 eliminating the gap from 18 to 20, for opportunity 14 to train unsupervised sports; however, we oppose the 15 balance of Intro. 454. The balance of the proposed 16 changes would add substantial inconvenience and 17 accomplish no purpose. All this would accomplish is 18 law-abiding citizens sitting around the Queens gun 19 licensing office, filling out a lot of unnecessary 20 paperwork, something that criminals won't adhere to. 21 So, in closing I would like to say 22 please don't treat law abiding citizens like 23 criminals. Let's deal with the real problem which is 24 the bad person behind the gun. These laws won't 25 deter criminals, only lawful citizens from getting 127 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 guns lawfully, which is their right as an American 3 citizen. 4 The Second Amendment was put into the 5 bill of rights for a reason, for the right of the 6 lawful citizen to keeping their arms. 7 Thank you on behalf of the NYSRPA for 8 letting our voice be heard. 9 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. 10 Continue, who is ever next. 11 MR. CASSEDAY: My name is Randall 12 Casseday. I am here representing Kahr Arms. Kahr 13 Arms is one of the manufacturers that does supply 14 side arms for the New York City Police Department. 15 Today my company had a business 16 meeting all day, and it was critical that I was 17 there, however, I missed that meeting in order to be 18 here. This is how important this was to us. 19 I heard a lot of talk about the 20 billions and billions of profits of the gun 21 manufacturers. I don't know where you're getting 22 these kinds of figures, because it's just not true. 23 We are not a billion dollar industry, and especially 24 our company is not a billion dollar company. There 25 are not a lot of profits in the gun industry. And, 128 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 so, these sort of bills that you're planning to 3 introduce are going to be very damaging economically 4 to the gun business, to the manufacturers 5 especially. 6 I'd like to focus on your strict 7 liability here. Let me say that in the last four 8 years the insurance on our company has risen 300 9 percent. It's getting very, very difficult for us to 10 acquire insurance to cover our liability in our 11 company, not only product liability but our general 12 commercial liability. This sort of legislation will 13 probably put us out of business if we can't acquire 14 insurance to cover this sort of thing. And you may 15 disagree with that or not believe it, but just watch 16 and see what happens. We will not be able to obtain 17 insurance. 18 I can't see how firearms could be 19 responsible for criminal misuse of this product. 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Are you a 21 manufacturer? 22 MR. CASSEDAY: Yes, we are. 23 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Or a dealer? You 24 are, okay. 25 MR. CASSEDAY: Our office, by the way, 129 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 is in Pearl River. That's why I'm here. Our factory 3 is in Massachusetts. 4 We do have a lot of law enforcement 5 sales, as well as civilian sales. A lot of civilians 6 depend on firearms to protect themself in their 7 home, in their domicile, and the law does allow them 8 to do that. 9 There are problems where criminals 10 have broken into homes and stolen their firearms and 11 misused them, and this is where a lot of this 12 criminal misuse is, where you're coming from. 13 Let me also say that I heard a lot of 14 talk about illegal firearms coming into the City. 15 Did you know that there are 20,000 laws on the books 16 governing the manufacture, transfer and ownership of 17 firearms in this country? Twenty-thousand laws. How 18 many more do we need? 19 We do not sell to customers directly. 20 Our license doesn't allow it. I don't know where Ms. 21 Barnes is getting these figures from, but I dispute 22 them and I disagree. 23 We only manufacture and sell to the 24 distribution chain, and the distribution chain, of 25 course, sells to retailers. That very chain of sale 130 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 is governed strictly by the government, by the ATF. 3 I have a book in my office that I 4 read all the time with all these laws and 5 restrictions in it, and we have to abide by that or 6 else we don't have a license to manufacture and we 7 would be put out of business. So, we want you to 8 understand that. We want you to know that we are 9 governed strictly by the ATF and our license and our 10 livelihood depends on that. 11 So, we can't see how more laws would 12 make any serious impact on that when there already 13 are laws that govern the way we operate our 14 business. 15 If you want to get a copy of the ATF 16 regulation, I can get them for you and show you 17 exactly what I'm talking about. But I just want to 18 make it clear, especially about your idea to bring 19 strict liability to manufacturers, I don't see how 20 you can do that. I really don't see how you can hold 21 -- and by the way, I also don't see how you can 22 compare toxic waste to guns. It's just not the same 23 thing. It's a whole different chain of events that 24 happens with illegal dumping of toxic waste than 25 what happens with illegal distribution of firearms, 131 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 but from the manufacturer's point of view, we are 3 not allowed to sell to individuals, we are not 4 allowed -- in fact, we as a practice do not sell to 5 retailers, and for some of the various reasons that 6 you brought up, that's why we don't do it. 7 So, we feel that you're going to have 8 problems with your legislation if you try to impose 9 this on the manufacturers, and we'd really like to 10 see a little bit more clearly what you're intending 11 to do. 12 And I have one more question for you. 13 You've invited all these people to speak here on 14 your terms, preaching the same thing that you did, 15 but why didn't you invite us? Why didn't you inform 16 us? And why didn't you invite us to speak on your 17 panel? And why didn't you invite the manufacturers 18 to join in the discussion with the creation of these 19 laws? We didn't hear anything about that. That's all 20 I want to say. 21 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: We did invite 22 many, many people, the NRA, who submitted testimony; 23 the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association. We 24 can't get around to inviting everyone, but had I 25 known you'd be giving such compelling testimony I 132 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 would have invited you. 3 MR. CASSEDAY: Where are the 4 manufacturers? We weren't invited. We would 5 appreciate a voice in this. 6 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: We agree. We 7 have to apologize for the oversight, and I'm glad 8 you're here today. 9 Let me just, before we get to the 10 last person, ask one quick question. As a small 11 manufacturer in New York, would strict liability put 12 you out of business? 13 MR. CASSEDAY: Yes, it would. One 14 lawsuit, which we feel most of these are improper 15 anyway, would put us out of business. 16 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Are you also a 17 manufacturer or a dealer? 18 MR. IMPERATO: We have 81 employees in 19 good old Brooklyn, New York, and I want to keep them 20 in Brooklyn, New York. We will be put out of 21 business with strict liability, hands down. 22 MR. CASSEDAY: We couldn't even obtain 23 insurance to cover it. 24 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I'm sorry, 25 again, are you a dealer or a manufacturer? 133 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 MR. IMPERATO: I am a manufacturer. 3 Henry Repeating Arms. We manufacture copies of 4 historical weapons that were used in the 1860s, 5 1870s, 1880s. 6 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Okay, let me 7 just get the one final testimony, then I know that 8 Council Member Moskowitz wants to comment also. 9 Please keep it within three minutes. Thank you. 10 MR. LESCZYNSKI: I'll try. My name is 11 Jim Lesczynski. I am Chairman of the New York City 12 Chapter of the Shooters Committee on Political 13 Education, or SCOPE, and a county committee member 14 of the Manhattan Libertarian Party. 15 SCOPE is a statewide civil liberties 16 organization, and one particularly important civil 17 liberty, the inalienable right of the individual 18 citizen to keep and bear arms. 19 As I'm sure you know, the right to 20 keep and bear arms is in trying to now ask the New 21 York State Civil Rights Act, Article 2, Section 4, 22 to say nothing of the Second Amendment of the US 23 Constitution. At a time when all of our civil 24 liberties are under attack by John Ashcroft's 25 Justice Department, and such misguided legislation 134 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 as the Patriot Act, I trust that the Committee 3 recognizes the vital importance of safeguarding our 4 remaining freedoms. 5 In my opinion, each of the bills you 6 are considering today clearly violates the spirit 7 and the letter of the New York State Civil Rights 8 Act and the US Bill of Rights. 9 Moreover, contrary to their purported 10 intention, these bills, if passed, would undermine 11 the very safety of the citizens of New York City. 12 I urge you to vote no on intros and 13 resolutions, but due to our time constraints, I will 14 limit my remarks to Intro. 363. 15 Intro. 363 would require rifle and 16 shotgun owners to obtain yearly liability insurance. 17 There are several serious problems with this 18 proposal. Such liability insurance would do nothing 19 to reduce the cost to the City of gun violence cited 20 by the intros' authors. Rifles and shotguns account 21 for few, if any, of the shootings, accidental or 22 otherwise, in New York City each year. Not that such 23 liability insurance should be required of any 24 firearm owner, whether that firearm is a rifle, 25 shotgun or a handgun. 135 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Few, if any, registered firearms of 3 any type result in gun violence in New York City, 4 and it goes without saying that the owners of 5 unregistered firearms are not going to purchase 6 liability insurance. 7 Mandatory liability insurance would 8 not only fail to reduce the cost to the City, but it 9 would impose major new costs on peaceful law-abiding 10 gun owners. 11 The $129 cost of registering each 12 rifle or shotgun in New York city is already onerous 13 for lower-income and middle-income New Yorkers. 14 There's a cost and it's also uniquely 15 borne by City residents, since our affluent 16 neighbors in Westchester and Nassau, Suffolk and 17 elsewhere in New York State need not register their 18 arms at all. Imposing costly mandatory liability 19 insurance on each rifle and shotgun will make lawful 20 ownership prohibitively expensive for working class 21 New Yorkers. 22 It would effectively make gun 23 ownership a privilege reserved for wealthy residents 24 and denied to our inner-city citizens who are most 25 in need of the ability to defend their homes and 136 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 families. 3 A shotgun in particular is widely 4 recognized as the ideal weapon for home defense, and 5 Intro. 363 would put that shotgun out of reach of 6 the inner-city resident who is most in need of it. 7 I find such legislation to be 8 inherently elitist and in fact racist. I repeat, 9 Intro. 363 is racist legislation. 10 What happens if Intro. 363 becomes 11 law, and all of the thousands of lawfully owned and 12 registered rifles and shotguns in New York City 13 suddenly become illegal, if the owners of those 14 firearms cannot afford liability insurance for each 15 registered weapon, the owners will be forced to 16 either sell these weapons or expect a knock on the 17 door from the NYPD when they come to confiscate 18 them. 19 I have some more comments to make but 20 I know I'm out of time, so I'd just like to get to 21 my closing comments. When you speak about honoring 22 Council Member James Davis, who has tragically sat 23 here in these chambers, frankly I find it 24 politically opportunistic and cynical to try to ram 25 these gun control legislations down our throats over 137 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 his dead body. In fact, if any lessons to be learned 3 from the Davis shooting, it is that guns when 4 properly used can prevent bloodshed, as Officer 5 Richard Burke's heroic actions demonstrated that 6 day. 7 Unfortunately average New Yorkers do 8 not have an armed police officer assigned to their 9 personal security details. Average New Yorkers must 10 arm themselves if they protect themselves and their 11 families from violence. 12 The best thing you can do to ensure 13 their safety is to defeat these proposals and to 14 repeal the existing laws that violate their 15 inalienable human right to self defense. 16 Thank you. 17 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Considering the 18 fact that James Davis was sponsor of most of these 19 bills, I'll have to respectfully disagree. 20 Council Member Moskowitz. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, 22 Mr. Chair, for this entire hearing and amount of 23 time you've dedicated to this incredibly important 24 topic. 25 I just have a comment, two comments 138 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 actually, one is just to take note of, I understand 3 there was some disappointment that you were not 4 aware of the hearing and so forth, but I do think 5 it's important to note that this is the Hallmark of 6 American democracy, where people with different 7 point of views have the opportunity to come and 8 express them, and I think that you will find that 9 the New York City Council is unbelievably opened and 10 committed to hearing those diverse point of views. 11 We do not shy away from people who have different 12 opinions and there perhaps may have been some 13 oversight, but in fact we have heard radically 14 different opinions here today. So, I just wanted to 15 make that comment. 16 Second of all, because the Chair 17 asked the question about whether manufacturers would 18 be put out of business by strict liability, I do 19 feel the need to just take a moment to put on my cap 20 as a former history professor, and to remind the 21 audience and the press that of course companies have 22 responded throughout American history when they're 23 being regulated in some way, that the result of this 24 regulation will be to put them out of business, and 25 particularly we're mindful of the auto industry's 139 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 response to seat belts and the cost of imposing seat 3 belts, there were in -- when Ralph Nader started 4 that movement in the sixties there was tremendous 5 outcry from the manufacturers that this was so 6 costly. The same thing happened with the regulation 7 of pesticides. So, while I don't necessarily think 8 it's an open and shut case, I would just remind 9 everyone that this is a fairly common response when 10 regulation is discussed and imposed. 11 Thank you very much. 12 MR. CASSEDAY: May I address that? 13 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Yes, you may. 14 Please speak into the mic. 15 MR. CASSEDAY: I think you're again 16 comparing apples and oranges. You're talking about 17 safety features in an automobile, before you were 18 talking about toxic waste, but in this case we're 19 talking about liability. It's different. 20 There are regulations that are being 21 proposed, for instance, right now in California for 22 additional safety designs built into handguns, for 23 example, but that has nothing to do with strict 24 liability. Seat belt use really in itself doesn't 25 really have anything to do with strict liability 140 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 against Ford. But I think -- 3 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: I'm sorry. 4 But, sir, what I said was when regulations are 5 proposed, companies often say that the result of the 6 regulation will be that they will be put out of 7 business. 8 Look, obviously any kind of analogy 9 is not a perfect one, but I do think it's important 10 just -- it's an issue that we have to do more 11 research on, what would be the effect, but I don't 12 think that it's conclusive and since your answer was 13 very, very definitive, I just wanted to remind those 14 who came to listen to the testimony that we heard 15 rather different views earlier, and it is not 16 clearly an open and shut case. 17 Thank you very much. 18 MR. IMPERATO: Can I make a comment on 19 this same issue, please? 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: As long as it's 21 a short one. 22 MR. IMPERATO: It's short. 23 Manufacturers in the gun industry today are faced 24 with a very small market place of insurance 25 companies who will even handle their business. It's 141 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 getting down to three or four, the expense keeps 3 going up every year, and each year one or two 4 insurance companies have dropped out of the picture 5 all together. 6 When you add the strict liability 7 issue to this, we will be unable to obtain any type 8 of liability insurance, hands down. 9 MR. CASSEDAY: I have to concur with 10 that. We have the same problem. In fact, we are not 11 covered for any governmental lawsuit that may be 12 brought against our company. We're not covered. 13 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: We'll get back 14 to you, Council Member Yassky. We will go to Council 15 Member Stewart first, who is the sponsor of the 16 insurance bill. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Thank you, 18 Mr. Chair. 19 I would like to address 363, and I 20 believe that some cities and states do have this in 21 place already. I don't have that information with me 22 right now, but I believe that some cities and states 23 have that in place currently. So, as far as being -- 24 MR. CASSEDAY: Have what in place? 25 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: 363. That is 142 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 the liability insurance for rifles and shotguns. 3 The only question, I would like to 4 know if we're going to call the people who don't own 5 a car, if we're going to say that those people are 6 going to call the people who own the car racist 7 because you have to have liability insurance for 8 cars. And I take offense to that because having 9 liability insurance simply means that you may not go 10 out there and willfully do something with that 11 shotgun, but something may happen, and if something 12 may happen, you want to be able to draw some sort of 13 a compensation or something to deal with the person 14 who has been hurt, and liability insurance basically 15 deals with that. And not to deal with crime per say, 16 but that the fact that it's a liability, you own the 17 building and if you don't want someone, just a 18 walker-by, and got hurt, you have liability 19 insurance. You have a car, you cannot put it on the 20 road in New York City without liability insurance, 21 and you might be driving for years without an 22 accident, but you have liability insurance in the 23 event that you hurt someone or someone get hurt from 24 your car. 25 So, I really took offense when you 143 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 say that it's a racist thing to have liability 3 insurance. 4 MR. IMPERATO: What I think the 5 gentleman meant is that the people that can afford 6 insurance are going to be the only ones that will be 7 able to get the insurance, therefore, they're going 8 to become an elitist group and they'll be the only 9 people who can own a rifle, shotgun in New York 10 City. Now, is that fair? 11 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: With their 12 housing situation? 13 MR. IMPERATO: And it is a proven fact 14 in the statistics that in this City of New York, 15 rightful shotgun permit holders do not commit 16 crimes. They are honest, law-abiding citizens. Check 17 with the City of New York and the Police Department 18 records, rifle shotgun owners with permits do not 19 commit crimes. They try to take the statistics and 20 show that they committed crimes because somebody may 21 have had a DWI and they listed that as a crime, but 22 in general, ask the New York City Police Department 23 about their permit holders and their history over 24 the past 35 years and the Firearms Control Board, 25 these people do not commit crimes. You're putting 144 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 the onus on law-abiding citizens. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: The question, 4 sir, is not whether they commit crime. The question 5 here is whether they will be liable for something to 6 be happening with that gun, that shotgun. 7 What I'm saying is basically this: 8 The person or driver is not the one who goes out 9 there wanting to create an accident. It so happened 10 that sometimes an accident is created. There are 11 many people who have driver's licenses and have been 12 driving for years without an accident, but the law 13 requires that they have liability insurance, and 14 that's what we're talking about. 15 So, the way you are putting it over 16 about crime, I'm not dealing with crime, I'm dealing 17 with responsibility. That's what I'm dealing with, 18 being responsible so that if you by chance happen to 19 create an accident, while you're shooting at that 20 there, the person who has been hurt, or the family 21 of that person who has been hurt should have some 22 recourse, and that's what we're talking about. 23 So, don't talk about crime when we 24 have to deal with responsibility. 25 MR. LESCZYNSKI: If I may, I was the 145 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 one who raised that issue. It's clear that requiring 3 liability insurance would price some current legal 4 gun owners, rifle and shotgun owners out of the 5 market. They currently own a shotgun to the family, 6 it's not only a constitution right, it's a human 7 right to be able to defend yourself in your home and 8 your family. It should not be based on your ability 9 to pay, according to what was mandated by law. 10 That's saying you have the right to 11 defend yourself, if you can afford it. That flies in 12 the face of our civil liberties to effectively price 13 people out of their right to self defense. 14 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Okay, we've 15 heard that, and we understand that it is expensive. 16 We also understand that car insurance is expensive, 17 and, yet, it's required in case of an accident. So, 18 I'm not going to go into that any further. 19 I believe we're done with the 20 questions. Just let me say that, as you're aware, I 21 support the Second Amendment, and I wouldn't do 22 anything, such as strict liability, that would put 23 law-abiding gun manufacturers out of business, and I 24 think I made that clear before. I don't know if you 25 were here. So, I appreciate your testimony. But we 146 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 do have a few more panels to go, though, and it's 3 getting late. So, thank you all for coming down. 4 And our next panel will be Jackie 5 Kuhls from the New Yorkers Against Gun Violence; 6 Andy Pelosi, New Yorkers Against Gun Violence; and 7 Donna Dees Thomases from the Million Mom March; also 8 Sara Alcoff for the Million Mom March. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER YASSKY: Just 10 momentarily, Donna is truly one in a million. Is it 11 appropriate for you to lead off? 12 MS. DEES THOMASES: Thank you very 13 much. 14 Good afternoon, Chairman Vallone, or 15 wherever did he go, and the honorable members of the 16 Public Safety Committee. My name is Donna Dees 17 Thomases. I was the organizer of the Million Mom 18 March in Washington, D.C., where more than 150,000 19 marched in support of sensible gun laws. It was the 20 second largest free speech event ever held in our 21 nation's capital. Another 150,000 march and support 22 rallies across the country, everywhere from Juno, 23 Alaska to Jackson, Mississippi. I remind you of this 24 not to brag but to tell you that we were believers 25 in the First Amendment of Free Speech. We were 147 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 required to get a permit to march in all of these 3 places. We were regulated in all of our marches. 4 The National Park Police required 5 that we have water to provide the people that came 6 to our march, we had to have port-o-potties, we had 7 to have security, we had to have EMS. And we 8 understand that in order for public safety that you 9 have to have some regulation on your constitutional 10 rights, and I want to say that as a believer in the 11 First Amendment, we accepted those regulations 12 without comment or criticism. 13 Currently I'm a member of the 14 Manhattan Chapter of the Million Mom March, and I'm 15 honored to be here today to represent the views of 16 the Million Mom March and I'm with the Brady 17 Campaign. We believe strongly that the irresponsible 18 gun manufacturers and dealers whose conduct 19 contributes to gun violence in New York City should 20 be legally accountable for that conduct. However, 21 because of our affiliated organizations, the Brady 22 Center to Prevent Gun Violence represents the City 23 in its pending lawsuit against the gun industry. We 24 do not feel it's appropriate to comment on specific 25 liability-related proposals at this time. 148 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 But if I may, on behalf of the 3 Million Mom March Mothers of New York City, I would 4 like to take this opportunity to commend this 5 legislative body on your courageous work in 6 preventing gun violence and urge you to continue to 7 look for creative and effective ways to reduce gun 8 violence in the City of New York. 9 If you are a mother, or if you've 10 ever had a mother, you know there is no more 11 forceful, more passionate, more determined than 12 mothers who are sick and tired of watching America's 13 children being slaughtered by easy access to guns. 14 Like you, the Million Mom March is 15 committed to promoting sensible laws to prevent guns 16 from getting into the hands of kids and criminals. 17 This mission is not an easy one, we 18 are working against a force out there that is better 19 financed than we are. It is a force that is better 20 at twisting arms than twisting the truth. It is a 21 dark force that preaches hate, fear and death all 22 under the banner of freedom and citizens' rights. 23 If it continues to prevail, more 24 children, more mothers, more fathers, more police 25 officers, and, yes, maybe even more City Councilmen 149 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 and women will die bloody senseless deaths because 3 some crazy person got his hands on a gun. 4 This dark force is the gun lobby, and 5 the elected officials who fear its money and its 6 wrath. I'm not talking about the lobby that 7 represents legitimate hunters and sportsmen, I'm 8 talking about the gun lobby that wraps itself in a 9 warped interpretation of the right to bear arms, and 10 in the gun lobby that is the shill of the gun 11 industry who has no conscience. 12 A year from now the national ban on 13 assault weapons will sunset. If the NRA and the Bush 14 Administration have their way, it won't be renewed. 15 Oh, happy day for the terrorists, the hate-killers, 16 and the people who love to sell to them. 17 Think of it - those kids at PS 234 in 18 Tribeca, the ones who barely survived two towers 19 crumbling down around them just two years ago, won't 20 have to worry that terrorists will bother hijacking 21 another plane when come next September those 22 terrorists will be able to buy assault rifles right 23 here in America, some that can even launch grenades. 24 Rifles can be fired so rapidly from the hip, that 25 any of our school yards can turn into fields of 150 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 death in a matter of seconds. 3 That's just the half of it. If the 4 NRA and the Bush Administration have their way, the 5 surviving victims of such carnage won't be able to 6 assert their legal rights against gun dealers who 7 irresponsibly supply illegal gun traffickers. 8 I have heard some testimony today 9 that, you know, law-abiding rifle owners don't 10 really commit crimes here, but I'm a resident of 11 Stuyvesant Town, and as many of you may recall, just 12 one year ago we had our own sniper in an incident 13 much like the NDC. This mentally unstable man shot 14 dozens of bullets from a high-powered rifle out of 15 his window in Stuyvesant Town. One hit the shoulder 16 of 25-year-old nursery school teacher named Iana 17 Reyes, who still bravely managed to get her young 18 students to safety despite her wound and her pain. 19 Ms. Reyes said that day was the 20 luckiest day of her life. Why? Because she said the 21 bullet ripped through her, not one of the toddlers 22 she was escorting back to class after a trip to a 23 local park. 24 If Iana Reyes is a hero, then what do 25 we call our elected officials who lack the courage 151 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 to stand up to the gun lobby? We call them 3 irresponsible cowards, unAmerican cowards, and I 4 know this sounds hysterical, but we call them cold 5 blooded murdering cowards. 6 The Million Mom March now partners 7 with the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. 8 What the majority of America wants: We want to stop 9 gun sales to the mentally ill and to the criminally 10 insane. 11 We want to stop the reckless gun 12 traffic that's become such a booming business, it 13 has college kids down south buying up guns and 14 driving them back north to sell out of the backs of 15 SUVs. For what? To finance their spring break 16 vacations? At who's expense? Well, at the expense of 17 the kids in Brooklyn and Harlem and the Bronx, and 18 at the expense of the mothers and fathers who must 19 bury them. 20 Like you, we want to stop this 21 reckless gun trafficking and the people who make it 22 possible. I want to thank you for giving me this 23 opportunity to testify today. It is a first for me. 24 I was just the organizer of the march and I refused 25 invitation to testify in the past, deferring to my 152 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 colleagues who can better explain the nuances of the 3 laws; however, I am honored to appear before you 4 today, because I believe that New York City, the 5 City that showed so much courage in the face of 9/11 6 is about to set an example for the State of New 7 York, and the State of New York can be the example 8 for the United States Congress and the rest of the 9 country. 10 On behalf of the Million Mom March, 11 now with the Brady Campaign, we applaud you for your 12 integrity and your courage today, and, finally, on a 13 sadder note we offer you are condolences of the loss 14 of your colleague James Davis. 15 In the spirit of James Davis, we hope 16 you will march with the mothers of Manhattan, 17 Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, Harlem and the 18 Bronx when we go back to Washington, D.C. on 19 Mother's Day 2004 to finish what we started in the 20 Year 2000. 21 Thank you very much. 22 MS. ALCOFF: Good afternoon. My name 23 is Sara Alcoff, and I'm one of the co-founders of 24 the Million Mom March, Brooklyn Chapter. 25 I am one of millions of moms who have 153 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 pledged to bring awareness to the fact that gun 3 violence is a preventable affliction, and that the 4 cure to the gun violence epidemic likes in making 5 the gun industry liable for irresponsible, 6 unethical, reckless distribution of guns. 7 I want to thank each and every one of 8 you for taking a stand today. Moms are proud of our 9 City Council laws. You have created and are still 10 creating lives that are examples to other cities, 11 and that in James Davis's words, "make a 12 difference." 13 Finally, I would like to read a 14 statement from my friend Jonnie Mae Robinson, who is 15 also co-founder with me, and other Brooklyn 16 Brooklynites of the Million Mom March Brooklyn 17 Chapter. 18 "Mother of three sons, now minus one 19 due to illegal guns running rapid on the streets of 20 New York City. The Year 1999 my 21-year-old son was 21 taken from me by a single bullet to the head. I 22 can't recall the name of the specific gun, but it 23 had bullets with no name. It took the life of 24 someone who was smart and ready to live. 25 I won't see a third generation 154 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 because of the guns that are so loose on the 3 streets. I am not the only one I have met and read 4 about with mothers who have lost loved ones to the 5 same thing, a gun. Please, pass the bill, the laws. 6 The guns have no name. Please help to save a mother 7 the pain of seeing her child in a photo which is not 8 presented for hang-up in her home, sitting with a 9 person to decide what color coffin or what words 10 need to be said to tell the story of one whose life 11 was taken so soon. Save us the pain. Thank you. 12 MS. KUHLS: Good afternoon. My name is 13 Jackie Kuhls, and I am Director of Public Policy for 14 New Yorkers Against Gun Violence. I am joined here 15 today by Andy Pelosi, who is the Executive Director. 16 On behalf of the organization's Board 17 of Directors, we would like to express our profound 18 sadness over the death of Councilman James Davis. 19 Councilman Davis was a friend of New Yorkers Against 20 Gun Violence for several years and a tireless worker 21 in the effort to reduce violence in our community. 22 His tragic death at the end of a gun is sadly 23 replicated, as we've heard just mentioned, hundreds 24 of times a year in our City. From 2000, 532 people 25 were killed by guns in the five boroughs. 155 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 New Yorkers Against Gun Violence is 3 dedicated to continuing the work Councilman Davis 4 found so crucial. Preventing gun violence through 5 education, advocacy and policy change. 6 Today we must look critically at our 7 laws and their implementation to see what more we 8 can do to stem the tide of illegal guns and reduce 9 the number of our residents killed by guns. I would 10 like to thank the Committee for already voting on 11 Resolutions 288 and 289 that New Yorkers Against Gun 12 Violence Supports. 13 We would like to mention Resolution 14 No. 584, which supports the BLAST Act, which is the 15 Ballistics Law Assistance Safety Technology Act, 16 which would establish a national ballistics 17 database. 18 New York is one of only two states 19 with a ballistic imaging database, it's also in 20 Maryland. In this database the manufacturers submit 21 shell casings which are imaged and put into a 22 database of new guns. Now, this database is most 23 useful after a number of years because you have to 24 allow time to expire since these are new guns, but 25 ultimately the database is very useful for law 156 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 enforcement, and in fact, we are supporting and 3 measuring the State to expand the ballistic database 4 to guns that do not readily eject shell casings, 5 such as revolvers, as well as to long guns and to 6 require images of the bullets and shell casings for 7 top crime guns. 8 We think this will maximize the help 9 to law enforcement. And the BLAST Act that's pending 10 in Congress would call for a national database, 11 which will be particularly useful for New York City 12 since the vast majority of guns come from out of 13 state, so to have this new gun database running 14 would be critical for law enforcement. 15 As to Intros 197 and 210, we strongly 16 urge the Committee to vote for these intros. We 17 highly support this legislation. We think it is 18 smart legislation that works to encourage, that it 19 works to encourage the gun industry to change their 20 practices. 21 As referred testimony here, a small 22 percentage of dealers account for so much of so many 23 of the illegal guns, and if we can just change the 24 practices of some, we could save many lives, and we 25 feel strongly that both measures be approved by the 157 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Committee and the Council. 3 I would also like to echo Ms. Barnes 4 on also Intro. No. 208. We also feel that to use the 5 City's purchasing power as leverage is critical and 6 is something that could really work to support the 7 other measures and really encourage the gun industry 8 to make changes in the way that they operate. The 9 way that they allow so many guns to get into the 10 hands of those who would misuse them. 11 And I think the analogy of using the 12 car companies and the drunk drivers, and it is 13 ridiculous to the extent that if there was a dealer 14 who was selling cars repeatedly to drunk drivers, 15 that person actually would end up being charged. 16 So, it is not an appropriate analogy 17 and in fact that's what we have here, we have a few 18 people that are acting very badly and causing lots 19 and lots of death and pain, and we need to change 20 the way they operate. 21 As to the Intro. 363 and Resolution 22 669, we are already strongly supporting a State 23 Assembly bill 702 which require gun dealers to hold 24 liability insurance and with regard to individual 25 gun owners we see that a requirement for individual 158 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 policies, as having potential to encourage 3 responsible gun owner practices in the home and 4 product safety improvements. 5 We do see a need for further 6 exploration, though, into how the industry would 7 assign appropriate risk and set affordable premiums. 8 So that's something that we do support in concept. 9 We think there's a little more that can be done with 10 that. 11 Also, with the 536 and Resolution 12 1000, again we support the idea of a limit on the 13 number of guns to make them purchase in a given 14 period of time as a way to report traffickers and 15 stop purchasers, we do have some questions on how 16 this would be enforced. 17 For instance, how would a dealer know 18 that somebody just bought a gun two weeks ago, like 19 a dealer in Brooklyn, how would they know that 20 somebody bought a gun in the Bronx two weeks ago. 21 So, there's some issues like that that -- 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Just so you 23 know, we've had the same concerns and I've sat down 24 with the Police Department about that, and it is a 25 very tough question on how to get this done. And 159 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 what we've pretty much come up with is the fact that 3 that's why they testified they need another 4 $150,000, because each dealer would have to call the 5 police to find out if the certificate of 6 registration has been filed within 90 days. It is 7 something we're working on, something that we're 8 aware of. Thank you. 9 MS. KUHLS: Okay. 10 And then lastly, I would like to just 11 mention our disappointment that Resolution Number 12 810 and 811 aren't on the agenda, as was also 13 previously mentioned, the federal assault weapon ban 14 expires one year from tomorrow, so the clock ticks 15 tomorrow into the one-year countdown, and I find 16 that the timeliness hearing is interesting, and 17 yesterday we had the horrific anniversary of the 18 World Trade Center collapse and that brings to mind 19 the terrorism and the terrorist threat. Tomorrow we 20 have the clock ticking on the assault weapon ban, 21 and meanwhile Congress is being lobbied heavily to 22 let that expire, and/or pass a law that is just not 23 strong. And I think that New York City, since we're 24 uniquely impacted by national laws and the fact that 25 with those guns out there, these are going to add to 160 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 the traffic guns that are coming in, and that's a 3 base going on now, and also with the immunity 4 legislation, the Senate is very close on that to 5 being able to have bypassed any kind of filibuster. 6 So, I think the Council needs to weigh-in now and 7 express New York City's desire to have a 8 strengthened and renew the assault weapons ban and 9 say no to the gun industry immunity. 10 I think both of those are critical 11 and the fact that New York City has not weighed in 12 says something in and of itself because people will 13 say New York City is known for strong gun laws, and, 14 oh, even New York City hasn't said anything on this. 15 So, I think it's harmful but for the 16 fact that we have not weighed in as many other 17 cities have. 18 So, we urgently request this 19 Committee and the Council to approve those 20 resolutions as quickly as possible, before it's too 21 late. 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Actually, 23 Council Member Yassky has already introduced a bill 24 calling for the extension, a resolution calling for 25 the extension of the assault weapons ban, and we'll 161 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 do what we can to get it heard as soon as possible. 3 MS. KUHLS: Thank you. Yes, that's 4 what we would like. Thank you. 5 MR. PELOSI: Chairman, I would like to 6 offer a quick comment. 7 My name is Andy Pelosi, I'm the 8 Director of New Yorkers Against Gun Violence. 9 Ms. Kuhls I had asked to present 10 testimony today, and we are extremely grateful for 11 the work of the Council members. Again, we share the 12 sadness of the assassination of Councilman Davis. 13 I just wanted to make a couple of 14 quick comments of some things that were mentioned 15 earlier. 16 Councilman Davis was armed. It did 17 him no good. It did him absolutely no good. He was 18 still assassinated in this Chamber. Fortunately 19 there was a police officer who was able to protect 20 the remaining folks in the Chamber. 21 Mr. Askew did buy his gun legally in 22 North Carolina. There is no dispute about that. But 23 it became an illegal gun once it left North 24 Carolina, and he failed to register that weapon and 25 failed to obtain the proper permits. 162 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 That type of scenario gets repeated 3 many times I'm sure. So that gun was in fact 4 illegal. He did buy it legally. It was an illegal 5 gun in New York City. 6 The Police Department also was 7 talking earlier about destruction of guns. There 8 actually is an executive order issued by the 9 Governor a couple of years ago. I don't know the 10 exact date, I could find out, which directed Police 11 Departments around the state to destroy weapons. 12 Now, whether all departments comply 13 with that executive order, I don't know, but there 14 is an executive order in place. And when it comes to 15 liability insurance, there is, Councilman Stewart, 16 in Cincinatti, I don't know if you're aware, in the 17 City of Cincinatti there is liability insurance for 18 protective minors to get access to weapons and there 19 is some type of an incident. So, I didn't know if 20 you might be aware of that, but that could be 21 something to point to perhaps for your legislation. 22 Our organization's been, we're 23 unfortunately or fortunately celebrating our tenth 24 anniversary this year. I would like us to be able to 25 go out of business, but I don't think that's going 163 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 to happen any time soon. 3 We support these measures, as Ms. 4 Kuhls said, we want to work with you to get these 5 things passed. We want to take care of this issue as 6 best we can this year. 7 The bills that are on your agenda 8 need to be brought up to the full Council and for a 9 vote, and we hope that you'll do that, and we thank 10 you for this opportunity today. 11 ACTING CHAIRPERSON YASSKY: Well, I 12 just want to thank the entire panel for your 13 testimony. Donna, just having organized the march, I 14 continue to believe that the Million Mom March will 15 in retrospect be seen as a turning point on this 16 issue, because the problem for all of us who believe 17 in gun control has always been that legislators 18 really I believe want to do the right thing, they 19 understand the benefits of reasonable gun control, 20 but they also believe they're supposed to be 21 responsive to their constituencies and in a lot of 22 districts throughout the country, they hear only 23 from the very organized opposition to gun control, 24 and not from the broad mass of folks who would 25 support and do support reasonable gun control. And, 164 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 so, your efforts and the efforts of everyone on this 3 panel to organize people to express themselves 4 politically, I think will prove to be the turning 5 point. So, I commend you for it, and it's really a 6 privilege to have you here today. 7 And thank you very much. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Let me just put 9 the panel on the spot here for a second, and I will 10 read the testimony I missed, thank you for coming 11 down. 12 What is your position on the strict 13 liability bill that's been introduced today? 14 If you don't want to answer, I 15 understand why. I believe we're all on the same side 16 for different reasons. As Chairman I do need to take 17 further action on this bill and they're going to ask 18 me what was the position of respected groups like 19 yours and I have to say I asked. 20 MR. PELOSI: Chairman Vallone, I think 21 it's a fair question, of course it's on the agenda. 22 We have had conversations with Councilwoman 23 Moskowitz, a couple of conversations prior to this 24 hearing, expressed our reservations with this bill, 25 very concerned about it being over-broad. You know, 165 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 I stressed what we felt was the importance of the 3 code of conduct, and its approach, its comprehensive 4 approach to getting to regulating manufacturers, and 5 I think that's the key here. 6 We know that manufacturers play a 7 major role in these guns on the street and they can 8 do something about it, manufacturers, retailers, 9 dealers, wholesalers and so on. And I tried to, what 10 I was saying, that's really the approach that we'd 11 like to see. 12 We're not convinced that strict 13 liability, it's a proper way to go and will achieve 14 the results that we really want to achieve, and had 15 offered to sit down with her and discuss that 16 further, which she agreed to do. So, I would say we 17 think there are better proposals, better ways of 18 getting at this illegal gun problem, than her bill 19 at this point, as it's written right now. 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you. Do 21 any of the Million Moms have an opinion? 22 MS. DEES THOMASES: Their 23 organization, the Brady Center, is representing the 24 City in its lawsuit, we felt it wasn't appropriate 25 for us to comment on the strict liability today. 166 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I understand 3 that. 4 Council Member Stewart. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: I just want 6 to compliment this panel, of course, for bringing 7 that information to us, and I would like to 8 compliment you in going out there and trying to make 9 a difference, because we find that the voices that 10 we hear out there, voices from in our area and those 11 folks who want to keep the status quo and have our 12 young people being cared for, no matter how it's 13 being done, whether it's legal or illegal guns, and 14 I just want to commend you for coming in and 15 testifying, so that we can get a clear-cut picture 16 of what is happening and who is out there trying to 17 promote and make a difference. 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I just thank you 20 waiting all the time to testify. I appreciate it. 21 The next and last panel will be I 22 believe four civilians. Timothy, it looks like 23 Furey. It's hard to read the handwriting. Barry 24 Cohen, Kathy Casey, and Anthony Xanthakis. 25 We only have two who braved the late 167 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 hour to testify. 3 MR. Well, we've been here since nine 4 this morning, actually. 5 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I have Anthony 6 Xanthakis, Kathy Casey, Timothy Furey or Farey and 7 Barry Cohen. Is there anyone else who wishes to be 8 part of this panel? Please fill out a form. 9 Okay, so we'll start this time from 10 the right, since you were sitting down first. Okay, 11 so, we'll start this time from the right, since you 12 were sitting down first. Please identify yourself 13 and begin. 14 MR. XANTHAKIS: Sure. My name is 15 Anthony Xanthakis. I just found out about these 16 hearings today. I happen to be an insurance defense 17 attorney, so I'm particularly interested in your, I 18 guess it's Intro. 487, the one you've been talking 19 about with respect to strict liability. 20 I defend companies on a regular basis 21 on strict liability cases on behalf of insurers and 22 self-insured companies. I also happen to be a 23 permitted holder of a firearm. 24 The problem with this particular 25 statute, as you're considering it, and this 168 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 resolution, is that strict liability already exists 3 in the State of New York. Gun manufacturers are 4 already responsible as any product manufacturers in 5 the State of New York for strict liability. 6 The problem with this particular 7 statute, every other strict liability in the State 8 of New York requires there be something wrong with 9 the product, a defect. Your bill, or actually your 10 introduction, asks that they be held strictly in 11 liable tort without regard to proof of defect. That 12 is a fundamental difference. 13 I remember when Councilwoman 14 Moskowitz was talking about, well, in the past, you 15 know, Ford and GM, Ford had Pintos, if you 16 remembered, and they got sued and they made a better 17 product as a result of that, and that was a positive 18 outcome from lawsuits. No doubt about it. 19 There is nothing a manufacturer here 20 can do about their product to resolve with your 21 bill, because their product is being -- 22 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: I know you 23 probably don't realize it, but you're saying your 24 bill, I don't believe it's anyone up here's bill. 25 MR. XANTHAKIS: I understand. The 169 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 introduction. Understood. I stand corrected also. 3 It's an introduction. 4 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: It's just the 5 fact that none of us proposed that bill, and may or 6 may not be supporting it. 7 MR. XANTHAKIS: Okay. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: You know I 9 don't. 10 MR. XANTHAKIS: I know that. 11 Understood. What I'm just trying to say is that that 12 is the actual problem with it. And, yes, lawsuits 13 can have a positive effect on change when there's 14 something that can be changed in order to resolve 15 it. 16 Manufacturer of products can build a 17 better product to fight off a strict liability 18 claim. There's nothing a manufacturer here can do 19 with respect to their product to fight off -- 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Do you have a 21 position on the bill which does allow them to adhere 22 to a code of conduct? Second strict liability bill. 23 MR. XANTHAKIS: I'm not familiar with 24 it, just that this bill -- 25 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: There's a strict 170 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 liability bill, which I believe we're on the same 3 page with, it is a second bill introduced by Council 4 Member Yassky, which will hold them strictly liable 5 if they fail to adhere to a code of conduct which 6 Council Member discussed before, where they take 7 action to make sure these guns don't go into the 8 hands of criminals; what's your opinion on that? 9 MR. XANTHAKIS: Okay. 10 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Very quickly. 11 MR. XANTHAKIS: I don't know of any -- 12 well, tort law is always concerned with conduct, and 13 it's concerned with negligence, conduct concerning 14 negligence, but you always have the problem of 15 proximate cause in any one of these cases. There's 16 never a suit, whether it's for, or what have you, 17 where there's a necessity of proximate cause, and I 18 think that's where the bill is going to fail on 19 every occasion. Even in this bill, in this 20 introduction, there would be a necessity for 21 proximate cause, and that's where I think it's going 22 to fail. Truly, you could put a great onus on gun 23 manufacturers to come in and have to defend these 24 things, but that's all it would be, it would just be 25 a greater onus. 171 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Now, with respect to insurance, 3 that's another matter. There will not be, 4 representing insurers on these matters, there will 5 not be insurance for any of this. They won't -- 6 because insurance companies will be taking the brunt 7 of it. And the one thing you don't want to have is 8 gun manufacturers passing it off to their carriers 9 anyway, because it doesn't change their behavior. 10 That's why insurers in New York don't 11 insure for assault. You'll never find in your 12 home-owners policy that you can go punch your 13 neighbor in the nose and then hand that off to your 14 insurance carrier. 15 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: With that bill, 16 and it's not your fault because there will be 17 changes, assume now that it's existing insurance 18 policies, nothing that doesn't exist, because we're 19 aware that nothing exists to cover intentional use 20 of a gun, so they couldn't purchase that type. 21 Existing homeowner's policy, so we would like to 22 extend that to people who don't own homes, or 23 renters who don't have home insurance, to make sure 24 that negligent use of that gun would be covered. 25 MR. XANTHAKIS: Oh, sure. Homeowner 172 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 policies always cover you for your own negligence. 3 They cover you for your own negligence now. If in 4 that homeowner's policy there's an exception dealing 5 with firearms -- 6 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: If you have it. 7 We're saying people who don't have a home, we want 8 to make it a law that someone who owns a rifle would 9 have to have the equivalent of a homeowner's policy 10 to cover a negligent act. 11 MR. XANTHAKIS: Okay. What you're 12 doing then is doing something that was done with 13 automobiles. At one time, and in still some states 14 in the United States, auto insurance is not 15 mandatory, it's optional. I think Maine just changed 16 their law to make it mandatory. Okay, what you're 17 proposing to do is in this fine area of firearms 18 ownership to make insurance -- and you can certainly 19 do that. The only thing is it's somewhat 20 unprecedented in these terms. There is no 21 requirement that you have homeowner's insurance in 22 the City or State of New York. There is no 23 requirement you have renters' insurance. There's no 24 requirement if you're a construction company, other 25 than worker's comp, that you have any liability 173 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 insurance, you're a boat owner, you don't have to 3 have boat insurance. What you're proposing to do 4 then is leave an area where you said with respect to 5 automobiles, because they're widely used and they 6 can be dangerous, you said, look, there's too many 7 automobiles out on the street, and in this 8 circumstance we're going to require you to have auto 9 insurance. That's fine. What you're proposing to do 10 is in a very fine number of people, firearm owners, 11 to make them get insurance. The problem with that 12 is, is that it doesn't address your problem. Your 13 problem is illegal guns. What you're now doing, 14 okay, is focusing on legal gun owners, which it 15 doesn't seem to be addressing the focus of your 16 problem. 17 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: It's Kendall 18 Stewart's bill, but he's concerned with it, perhaps 19 a child being injured by a gun which is found in a 20 home and the people not having any insurance to 21 cover that injury. 22 MR. XANTHAKIS: Okay, if the person 23 has homeowner's insurance now will be covered, what 24 you're saying is mandating that they get it. If the 25 insurance companies wish to, they can appeal to the 174 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 New York State Insurance Department and have 3 firearms excluded from their policies, if they are 4 of the opinion that what you're basically doing is 5 making a broad insurance just for firearms and 6 forcing people to have them. This is not a large 7 problem, I don't think, in the City and State of New 8 York, meaning what you're addressing. I don't know 9 on how many occasions it comes up that a legal 10 firearm, a legal permitted firearm is actually used 11 in an accident where someone should want to sue 12 someone. I suppose a lot of people shoot themselves 13 in the foot when they're cleaning their gun, then 14 they don't have the ability to sue themselves, you 15 don't need liability insurance for that, and that 16 would be exempted in every single policy. 17 What you're talking about is 18 requiring pretty expensive stuff for people who 19 don't have a lot of money to go out and get for a 20 problem that is infinitesimal in terms of what 21 you're trying to address. 22 And I know the fellow who was sitting 23 in this very seat talked about it being racist and 24 all, and maybe that was the wrong way to address it, 25 but what I'm saying is, is that I live in a very 175 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 good neighborhood in Staten Island. I happen to have 3 a firearm. To be honest with you, I'm not that 4 worried in my home about being invaded and having to 5 use it. Some people in some bad parts of this City 6 who really need a weapon, a firearm to protect 7 themselves, and they're in a lower-income 8 neighborhood won't be able to afford that, and 9 they're the people who really need it, not me, and I 10 can afford the insurance. 11 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Okay, very good 12 point. I just want to let Kendall Stewart respond, 13 because we're well over the three minutes. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: I'm really 15 amazed at how we try to bring in cost. We deal with 16 vehicles all the time, we're not dealing with the 17 cost of the insurance. You must have liability 18 insurance, as far as an automobile is concerned in 19 New York. There is no ifs or buts, and if you go and 20 put a car on the road without getting that 21 insurance, you can be put to jail. 22 MR. XANTHAKIS: Absolutely. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Even if you 24 didn't create an accident. 25 MR. XANTHAKIS: As it should be. 176 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: So now, if 3 you have a shotgun, and that shotgun, you may by 4 accident -- we're not saying that you will have that 5 problem, we're saying that you may. If you hurt 6 someone, that person that is being hurt should have 7 some recourse, based on the fact that you have 8 insurance. Right now if you don't have insurance and 9 you don't have anything that they can go after, 10 there's nothing. And that's all we're saying, we're 11 not talking about to cut down crime or anything like 12 that. All we're saying, we want to be responsible. 13 It also makes you much more responsible to safeguard 14 that weapon, if you had the insurance. Because when 15 you go to get the new one, or you want to renew that 16 insurance, they will ask just like when you have a 17 vehicle, if you don't take care of it, if you create 18 a lot of accidents and all that, that insurance will 19 change. It will go up and make you much more 20 responsible, that's what we want you to do. 21 MR. XANTHAKIS: One point I just want 22 to bring up is insurance very often makes you less 23 responsible, because I'll explain to you. If you 24 have a million dollar insurance policy backing you 25 up, very often people don't care about their 177 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 actions. They really don't. It happens all the time 3 with automobiles, they don't care. You can go out, 4 you can be as frivolous or as dangerous as you want 5 with your automobile, what do I care, I got a big 6 policy backing me up. So, it's not exactly that 7 people will be more careful if they have insurance. 8 I beg to differ, having dealt with this for pretty 9 much all my legal career. 10 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you very 11 much, gentlemen. 12 MR. XANTHAKIS: Thank you. 13 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Next, please. 14 MR. COHEN: My name is Barry Cohen. I 15 live in Brooklyn, in Kensington. I've been a 16 shooter, competitive shooter in New York City for 45 17 years off and on, and one thing that I've learned 18 during those 45 years is that laws are for the law 19 abiding, criminals do not respect the law. 20 I'll try not to duplicate what other 21 people have said, I would like to make a couple of 22 comments on specific items. 23 Number 363 requires a quarter of a 24 million dollars of coverage of each and every long 25 gun. Well, avid shooters and collectors may need 178 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 several million dollars of coverage. This seems to 3 be completely disproportional to the level of threat 4 they represent, which is virtually nil. 5 Who would write these policies, and 6 at what cost? It's true that you can buy a personal 7 liability policy, but what happens when New Yorkers 8 begin to apply in hither to unheard of numbers for 9 these policies? Insurance companies will want to 10 know why, and when they find out why, they may not 11 be willing to issue these policies at any price. 12 I was recently denied a co-op owners 13 policy solely because I'm a gun owner, and by a 14 company which already writes my automobile 15 insurance. So they know me. They know my record. I 16 have attached a copy of their letter to my remarks. 17 So we can reasonably anticipate that 18 these policies, if they are available at all, will 19 come at exorbitant cost. And what happens when the 20 policy writers refuse to write them, pull out of the 21 market? There's an analogy in the text of the bill 22 to automobile liability insurance, but it fails to 23 carry the analogy far enough and take note of the 24 price gouging and the fact that insurers have been 25 known to abruptly leave markets that aren't 179 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 sufficiently profitable. We really need to take 3 notice of these issues. 4 I'd also like to talk very briefly 5 about one other bill that nobody has really talked 6 about, which is 454, prohibiting sales of rifle and 7 shotguns to anyone under 21 years of age. 8 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: That is the law 9 already, we're just codifying it. We're not taking 10 any great steps in that regard. 11 MR. COHEN: There is no new 12 legislation here? 13 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: It's already 14 been done. 15 MR. COHEN: It's already been done. 16 I'll pass on that. 17 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: The new part is 18 requiring the dealers to record the information when 19 they sell ammunition. Right now, as far as I know, 20 they just have to look at the information, they 21 don't have to record it, although one of the 22 manufacturers thought that might not be the case. 23 So, that's the new portion of that bill. 24 MR. COHEN: All right. Thank you. 25 MR. FUREY: Hello. My name is Timothy 180 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 Furey. I'm a student at Vassar College. I've done a 3 lot of my research over the past four years looking 4 at gun control, their effects and gun violence, what 5 I'm here to do with you today is maybe talk about 6 some issues that haven't been heard and things that 7 I'm sure you haven't heard of yet because they're 8 new issues and new loopholes. 9 First, I'd like to start, I'm going 10 to briefly go over a few things. We talked about 11 363 and how you're imposing a liability insurance on 12 licensees. I think this represents a fundamental 13 problem in how he Council even looks at gun 14 violence. All of the laws the City Council tries to 15 pass affect licensed gun owners. They don't affect 16 anyone else. So, therefore they have a very opposite 17 effect than what they're intending is. They're 18 discouraging people from becoming licensed gun 19 owners. I mean, contrary to what a lot of the, you 20 know, the Councilmen I think believe, not everybody 21 in New York City is, you know, independently 22 wealthy. 23 I mean, licenses alone cost hundreds, 24 between the legal fees of just owning a pistol 25 permit in your house, it's at least $1,000. Not 181 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 everybody has a week to take off of work to get all 3 the documentation and go through the process of 4 getting a pistol permit. But there's the fear that 5 the laws will be changed, like we're working on 6 right now, and you're going to have somebody, the 7 police come knocking on your door, which happened, I 8 think it was 1994 when they changed the laws. So, 9 what's the solution to this? What's the solution to 10 getting the guns off the street? And it's very 11 simply creating changes in the law that will allow 12 law abiding citizens to get guns. 13 For instance, why aren't the 14 applications on line? Why aren't they available at 15 your local precinct? Why do they only have to be 16 typed? Why do you only have to go to register a gun 17 between 12:00 and 2:00. I've given you a 18 documentation on very common sense things that can 19 be done to bring people into the system. I mean, you 20 guys, in City Council, my apologies, have a decision 21 to make in that you have all these guns coming to 22 the City of New York, I mean most of them are not 23 registered and most of them are owned by law-abiding 24 citizens that merely don't get licenses because of 25 what they went through, not that they wouldn't 182 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 actually qualify for those permits. 3 So, I've included that list so that 4 you can go over those things, because people will 5 continue to get guns no matter what; do you want 6 them in the system or not? 7 Some of the things that we talked 8 about today, you mentioned the liability insurance 9 in cars. I noticed in the bill that you mentioned 10 driving is a right. It is not a right. Any court in 11 the nation would say that it is not a right to 12 drive, at least anywhere that I don't know of. It 13 is, however, a right to own a gun and defend your 14 household. If there's anybody here that could raise 15 that issue, please do. 16 And you also mentioned the comments 17 of racism came up. I'm not sure if you're aware of 18 any of the history of the Jim Crowe legislation, but 19 New York City has in place -- 20 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: No one takes 21 that seriously, that comment. So, if you feel you 22 have to address it, that's fine. Time is running 23 out, though. 24 MR. FUREY: I'm just saying, some 25 other things you may want to mention, talking about 183 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 loopholes, there are a few other loopholes that have 3 just come into effect. 4 We talk about, for instance, I'm sure 5 you're aware in California, there was recently a 6 bill that enabled illegal aliens to obtain driver's 7 licenses. What that also does is allow them to 8 obtain firearms. They can go to any, with a 9 California state driver's license, they can go any 10 place in New York State and pick up a gun. Nobody 11 seems to be contesting that at all in the City 12 Council. 13 Also, there's also the issue of 14 police. You'll notice Officer Richter was very 15 concerned of making an exemption for the police. 16 Most of the gun laws in New York City are completely 17 exempt from police officers and continue to be upon 18 their leaving the force. 19 I think that if we're going to have a 20 kind of system it should be led by example and not 21 exemption, as it is with the NYPD. If these laws are 22 really designed to commit crime, in that I'm sure 23 you will find that there have been more crimes 24 committed by police officers with guns in New York 25 City this year than with licensed gun owners. And 184 1 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY 2 one thing I just would like to also mention, there's 3 no statistics at all in here about what appears to 4 be the most important piece of data, is how many gun 5 owners and registered guns were used in crime in New 6 York City. 7 I mean, that is who we're trying to 8 regulate here. Where is that number? Nobody 9 testified to it. It's by far the most important 10 thing here, and where is it? I mean that's what 11 we're trying to solve. I mean, if there was one 12 crime, I mean is that really all worth it to sell 13 that one crime? I mean, I don't think there were any 14 at all, but I don't know if you see things 15 differently. 16 CHAIRPERSON VALLONE: Thank you all 17 very much. We appreciate your testimony, and we have 18 copies of it, and it's very helpful. 19 I believe that concludes our Public 20 Safety hearing for the day. Thank you all for 21 attending. 22 (Hearing concluded at 2:20 p.m.) 23 24 25 185 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 5 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 6 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified 10 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 11 State of New York, do hereby certify that the 12 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the 13 within proceeding. 14 I further certify that I am not 15 related to any of the parties to this action by 16 blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 17 interested in the outcome of this matter. 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 19 set my hand this 12th day of September 2003. 20 21 22 23 24 --------------------- 25 CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. 186 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified Shorthand 10 Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the State of 11 New York, do hereby certify the aforesaid to be a 12 true and accurate copy of the transcription of the 13 audio tapes of this hearing. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ----------------------- CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. 25